Where children really better behaved in the past or do people remember with rose tinted glasses?

[username5555]

This is inspired by a video online whereby a toddler was having a massive tantrum on a 8 hour flight.
A lot of the comments underneath basically were how terrible a parent the mother was and how in their day the child wouldn't have dared behave like that.
What is the alleged difference? What are we not doing that we did then? Or do people only remember the good parts and forget their children also behaved like that.
I personally as a mother of a toddler found the comments awful. I suspect the mother was not having the time of her life either.

@beerandchocolate of course you did! Are you saying one/two and even three year olds don't tantrum?

www.smh.com.au/national/victoria/didn-t-want-to-listen-to-the-nagging-woman-lets-13-year-old-drive-car-20181229-p50opi.html

Not sure if link is pasted correctly? Essentially mum lets 13yo drive the car as otherwise they would throw a bit of a hissy and nag. This pretty much typifies parents and kids these days. This is the result.

Can’t say NO as some new fangled parenting guru of the moment is espousing that it will fuck a kid up for life. So parents don’t say no, can’t raise a voice (you know, violence and kid will be forever fucked up also), can’t physically discipline (ditto). There is no toolkit. Parents give up.

The only ‘valid’ option these days is to let the kids make all choices and decisions. Otherwise you are stifling creativity. You are all meant to have deep and meaningful conversations and to reach harmonious agreements. Doesn’t work so well when a 3yo is throwing a good one because they can’t have all of the cake - you know when they want to take one bite out of every slice and throw all the other bits around. Yes, parents are now meant to ‘reason’ with the 3yo and somehow make a 3yo come to understand that this is not what they want at all, they really want to have one slice and not be the ‘owner’ of the entire cake meant for everyone and that’s it’s not all about them. What bollocks. Parents are set up for failure from day one these days.

As I clumsily tried to say yesterday - I don't think it's the behaviour of children that's changed. O think humans have always behaved similarly.

It's the environment and parenting that's changed and that does influence future behaviours iyswim?

It's all the nature nurture debate.

I often chat to my ds and friends teens and they are amazed when we mention things like dial up internet and phone being enraged. Landlines attached to walls and the fact I had no internet at home until after I'd moved out! Phone boxes to call home etc.

My friends and I are on my mid to late 30's so we are only talking 20-25 years ago.

I actually tell them we had better and more secure friendships and better self esteem and better integrity than today's youth.
That's because if we arranged to meet up on a Saturday we arranged to be at bus station in town between (say) 10-10.30. Then everyone would get a bus or walk in for 10 and hang around for everyone.

If we met friends at bus stop we'd say what we were doing and invite along or say bye.

With the age of the mobile it seems they meet people en route, change plans, text to say they aren't coming now as doing x with y.

We have a teenager who have has a level of understanding similar to a 18 month old. He may do things to us or other carers but apart from noises caused by disability and people not wanting to see things like self injurious behaviour he doesn't impact on other people.
Obviously I can only speak about younger children but there are lots of ways of managing behaviour that social services are in approval of and disciplining of the hitting sort isn't required.

Children these days also have to contend with the damage they have received from vaccines- sensory and behaviour issues.

Reading this thread is like being in a parallel universe. Does no one else know that crime rates and rates of teen drinking and pregnancy have all gone down in the last decade? By these objective measures teenagers are better behaved and making better choices. But that doesn't fit in with everyone's false nostalgia, so it gets ignored.

There is an element of rose tinted glasses but there's also a difference in parenting - children are indulged more and allowed their own way, parents aren't as strict and have less authority over their offspring. I'm not passing judgement on what is better but we bring our children up differently and that does result in less boundaries in my observation, teachers are respected for instance. However toddlers have always been wayward, hence the expression terrible twos!

I think perhaps there is less respect for adults but then maybe that has more to do with the behaviour of the adults. I certainly know plenty of adults whose behaviour and conduct is nothing to write home about. Maybe teens are getting wiser.

"Children these days also have to contend with the damage they have received from vaccines- sensory and behaviour issues."

Vaccines existed 60 years ago. They are not some new fangled thing.

I think children are more often brought into what were 'adults only' spaces when I was younger (I am 40). Going to a cafe/restaurant was an extremely rare event when I was young, or going on an aeroplane, even a taxi - all things my children do regularly. Children are spending more time in adult spaces like cafes where their (understandably) childlike behaviour is more apparent than if they were in a playground (ie where kids are meant to be!!) I think we expect too much of kids / ie that they should be able to behave in a space not designed for them.

Well mine are grown up now (ish) early 20s. They weren't hit as children (might have been a bit shouty) but they had firm boundaries and knew that if they crossed the line there would be consequences (no sweetie ration, no tv, no park, etc). Worked well. They also went to good schools where poor behaviour was not tolerated.

Sadly dd did spend a few terms at a supposedly elite secondary that had about 10 applications per place - nothing, absolutely nothing was done about poor behaviour and it was very poor - violence, swearing, bullying, pyromania, threats, etc. Fortunately we had enough money to transfer her to an independent and guess what - poor behaviour was dealt with.

This thread is incredible. Yes, things have changed and we can all think of examples of bad behaviour and poor parenting but honestly, an example of a parent letting a 13 year old drive a car “typifies parents and kids these days”? Really? I’m not sure what it’s like where you all live but that’s not my experience of child/parent relationships. I’m also pretty sure there’s a middle ground between adults hitting children and just letting them do whatever they want.

sockwomble have you compared the vaccine schedule 60yrs ago to today’s schedule?

Sensory and behavioural difficulties existed before vaccines but we don't lock those children away out of sight anymore but if you want to believe in woo that is up to you.

It's rose tinted glasses in the main I think. I deffo wasn't that well behaved and 20 years ago (when I was teaching) behaviour in schools wasn't great.

One thing I do observe though is a rather worrying quest for 'happiness'. Life is bloody hard in lots of ways and dc need to be prepared for that. Very bizarre thread the other day that was deleted where 11 year old was probably being ungrateful/ bratty and the posters piled in bizarrely on the mum like 11 year olds should never have to suck up any dissatisfaction/ unhappiness in their life.

And most of the 'judgement' I reckon is on MN, people probably judged in the past but didn't have the annonymous outlets. There is also on MN this bizarre expectation of perfection in all areas (from people posting on MN not doing craft with their dcs possibly who aren't even parents ). It sure is a strange world we live in.

Lots of parents are definitely softer now, there was a thread recently about a child being badly behaved & the op kept saying I ASK them to stop doing... I do ASK them to sit down...when my daughter was naughty I TOLD her to behave & my mum just had to give me THELOOK!

Oh yes, I was raised to fear my parents as well.
It did wonders for my self esteem and helped me find myself in healthy relationships - nope

I don’t want anyone to hit their child, but when I’m sitting in a coffee shop I do want parents to keep their child under control -that means sitting down, not wandering around annoying everyone
have coffee at home

I'm in my 60's - kids used to get smacked for misbehaviour when I was one. And they got caned in school. In general I think that people were more in awe of authority then - we were brought up to be afraid of policemen, teachers etc. These days parents kindly tell their kids how nice everyone is, and kids can't be punished in any painful way, so they do tend to get away with more than we did.
*
I'm pretty sure that if I'd played up on a plane ( or a train in those days ) I'd have got a very painful smacking . I'm not saying that was a good thing, but pain did have an effect on badly-behaved kids.*
Jesus wept

We were raised in a very strict household and had "the fear"

I can guarantee that there were tantrums and that we were all rebel teens as a consequence. We were quite smart about it though and my parents had little clue. We lied and did everything in secret. And this continues now, the secrecy . My parents have always lived not knowing us at all.
To everyone else, perfect children, how well they behave. When the sun went down... This was the norm in my town. Well behaved private girl school... just an image

We decide to forget the bad behaviour, so rose tinted all the way

Oh and my grandparents would look after us whilst my parents did the shopping. No way my mum had to wrestle 5 children in there

I don't think parents are necessarily always busier now. I grew up in the 50s and 60s, we were 4 children, including a toddler and a baby by the time I started school. There was no car, and it was a long walk to the shops - uphill on the way back - with a big old fashioned pram and at least one older child - no automatic washing machine, no central heating, so fires had to be laid and the ash and mess cleared daily in winter.

And no TV - at least until I was 11 - to keep small children quiet and occupied for even half an hour.
All we had was Listen With Mother.
It was hard work - a full time job - and we certainly had no family nearby to help. I don't know why it's often assumed that nearly everybody did.

I was a brat as a child and a nightmare teen and I knew many similar to me so I don't think that children themselves have changed. Kids of all ages push boundaries, always have always will.

What I do notice is how many parents I know are scared of their children. Scared of tantrums, scared of saying no, scared of their child crying. People give in to their kids so easily. They will go to great lengths to avoid tantrums and when they do happen then the parents just give in. It's such an 'anything for an easy life' attitude and I can't get my head around it. All kids have a phase of tantrums and if you don't give in then the phase soon passes (talking about NT children) but if you consistently give in then the child will just continue to tantrum every time they are not getting their own way. I know a lot of parents who just give in 'for an easy life' but it actually makes their life so much more difficult in the long run. I don't understand it at all. 9

Yeah and the smacking argument. I was smacked too and have a memory of running off and my mother trying to catch me for my hiding. Yeah real control there

I've been considering this since spending time with my relative and her kids the other day. One child came to her while we were talking with a group of other adults, nothing urgent, but she cut us dead mid sentance to focus completely on them. As a child she was taught to say excuse me to grown ups then wait her turn. She watched as a child put half a box of Matchmakers on a plate then gave the child a handful of grapes too. She was taught not to be greedy. They are lovely kids, but the adult's attitude saddens me.

I think part of the problem is that parents today who were brought up in very authoritarian, 'because I said so', smacking and shouting households (me and loads of my peers) quite understandably don't want to raise their children the same way but perhaps go to a whole other extreme.

So you get people who never felt their opinion on anything mattered determined their dc won't feel that way but they then give their child's opinion on all matters as much weight as the parents without having considered that the child simply doesn't have the maturity and insight to reach an informed opinion, whether that's about the area the family is moving to, the car you're buying, the most suitable school, the family holiday or even just a day trip or meal out.

People who felt that their feelings and emotions were overlooked can be so anxious to ensure their dc feel understood and 'heard' that flippin everything is talked to death! You see it a lot on MN - lots of gentle chats about how 6yo DS might feel if he was regularly being kicked by another child, loads of cuddles and reassurance about how much he's loved (because his self esteem you see ) and mum is just disappointed that he booted little Johnny.

Those who received harsh punishments for pretty minor misdemeanors understandably don't want that for their dc but I do think some parents become unwilling to take any action to prevent or deter unacceptable behaviour. Some seem to have a real fear that their child might experience guilt or shame or any negative emotion even when that's actually a valid way to feel in the circumstances.

Natural consequences work some of the time but other times it's a cop out. If the 6 yo continues to be horrible to little Johnny and other dc then yes they'll eventually stop wanting to be around him but that's often not immediate. Will he grasp that this is a 'consequence' of his behaviour? I mean his mum tells him how lovely and wonderful he is even while they're talking about why he hurt someone else .

I think there's a middle ground between my upbringing and some of the parenting I see a lot of these days. The desire to do things differently is understandable but when we go in completely the opposite direction we risk raising very self centred people who struggle to deal with negative emotions or less than positive reactions from others or put the greater good ahead of their own immediate wants and needs.

Children these days also have to contend with the damage they have received from vaccines- sensory and behaviour issues.

Bullshit but have a for your goady efforts.

Yeah and the smacking argument. I was smacked too and have a memory of running off and my mother trying to catch me for my hiding. Yeah real control there

Same here. If smacking actually worked as both a punishment and a deterrent you'd only ever have to smack them the once (punishment) and never again (deterrent).

We certainly didn't fear our parents as such, so I don't think fear had to be a factor, but my father in particular, despite being a very jolly type, had a natural authority which meant we simply didn't think of defying him. I don't know whether WW2 experience had made a difference - he was a naval officer - or whether it was innate.

I can think of one or two teachers the same - in particular a Latin teacher in my first two years at senior school - she never shouted or abused anybody, let alone throwing blackboard rubbers! - but you just didnt think of talking or playing up during her lessons.

By contrast there was a (male) physics teacher when I was slightly older - some of us played him up mercilessly - he just shrugged and let us get on with it.

I dare say that was why I'd get 90 odd % in Latin exams - and 30 odd for physics!

I haven't read all of this thread sorry but smacking didn't always stop kids being naughty. I was smacked a lot as a child and clearly it wasn't working to prevent me doing anything else naughty or it would have only happened once. Kids have far less sleep these days which I think is a major factor. I really don't see why people in their 60s think that they were brought up any better. There are a lot of downsides to kids being seen and not heard like all the sexual abuse etc that was just accepted and covered up by other adults. Times have changed and kids should have a voice. I don't know anyone that doesn't teach their kids to respect policemen etc. I'm sure there are parents like that but it's not the majority of people. The majority of people are respectful.
I think parenting classes, much like prenatal classes would be great for people. I'd definitely sign up. I don't think I'm a bad parent but we all need advise and support and kids don't come out with a manual. If we can't physically disapline then teach people how to do it effectively. It shouldn't be up to supernanny to do that