to tell my friend to sod off with her helpful husband!

[QwertyLou]

Thanks for the amazing advice before & this is my last question on this party I promise (its on Sunday so it better be)!!

My son (nearly 4) is going through an arty-crafty stage. He loves painting more than anything. So I wasn't surprised when he announced he wanted to do painting "with my friends for my WHOLE party!"

So we're doing some painting at his party (15 mins or so), along with lots of other fun things. Just little plaster rockets and spaceships, one for each child to paint and they take it home.

When I mentioned this to a friend she made a horrified face... "Painting... for boys??" And recommended I scrap it for a football session, perhaps with the man from her son's party.

I hadn't even realised that painting was considered "un-manly" and boys were not supposed to enjoy it... is that a thing?

My son enjoyed the football session, but not enough to want the same thing. Plus it was an hour-long session - I'd have to scrap half the party! Which I explained to my friend.

Unbeknownst to me she gave my no. to Football Man who contacted me, so I explained myself again and thought that was it. But no.

Yesterday my friend announced that she has kindly lined up her husband ("John") to do a football activity "in parallel" with the painting. So her son and other boys can do football while anyone else is painting.

I said that of course John, would be welcome to play football with their son during the painting if they want. No child, boy or girl, will be compelled to paint a plaster rocket against their will! We'll be in the back garden with plenty of things to do.

But I really do not want John to announce an official "Come on kids line up over here!!" activity just as the painting is starting. The whole idea is to bring everyone (or most people) together for a quieter activity they can enjoy as a group - then we'll have the cake.

And my son is really excited about painting with his friends. I keep finding him in the kitchen, gazing longingly up at all the paint stuff. If they all race off to play football, it will defeat the whole purpose [delete](plus I'll be left with a mountain of plaster rockets)[delete].

I explained all this to my friend but she was having none of it.

She said John was more than happy to do it, it would be fun, it was important to let "boys be boys" and she knows it must be hard for me as a single mum to cater for boys, hence her lining up John.

We were both getting our sons into the car after nursery and she drove off after that.

So as it stands, John is "kindly" doing this official activity on Sunday.

I don't want him to, but what do I say to make that clear without offending anyone?

Part of me feels a bit ungrateful too. We single mothers of boys are constantly berated by society to ensure our sons have good male role models (GMRM) or they will turn into anti-social, drug-taking juvenile delinquents.

And lo and behold, here one is - a GMRM - volunteering something!
And am I gratefully accepting? No, I am saying no (trying to)!

Tell Jane to use whatsapp rather than messages. Then her husband shouldn't be able to see what she's sent without physically checking her phone.

How lovely that your son wants to do something he enjoys!! I'm sure the other kids will enjoy it as well!

Do you have any old phone handsets, op? Maybe (this is a way down the line) put a PAYG card with £20 on it in an old handset and hand it to her, in case she ever wants/needs it. If he finds it she can say in all honesty that it's yours and you must have left it there by accident. Make sure it's got a PIN.

Yes, perhaps they weren't at the party because John had beaten her badly enough to leave visible marks poor Jane tripped over something and hurt herself...

Tbh I don’t think that painting pictures of beatings john might be dishing out are helpful. There’s no question that he’s a control freak but nobody here knows the extent of this relationship or even whether Jane might be on board with being a surrendered wife or similar. It happens.

OP, the wife of john’s mate who told you about the fact he monitors her phone use, what did she have to say about it? The fact that he’s actually quite open about it is really quite creepy in some senses but in others he obviously thinks that what he’s doing is normal. What did your friend (the wife) think? Could the two of you get together to talk about the situation and how you could be there for Jane if/when the time comes?

Reality is that while we all aspire for women to leave creeps like this, many many women don’t. And often the abuse is emotional only,and we are only just getting to a point where society recognises emotional abuse alongside physical abuse,so there’s still a long way to go there.

It’s entirely possible that Jane may not think that her relationship is abusive, or if she does, that her lifestyle is worth the price she pays for it if there is no physical abuse in the equation.

You can be there for her if she needs to talk, but the truth here is that you can’t change things for her. She needs to do that for herself and she will only if that’s what she wants. Hard as that is.

He sounds like the type who always has a last minute crisis to prevent his wife going out alone.

Answering Summergems point about John being quite open about his tracking of his wife's phone - John probably was quite happy to tell another man about in a "Look how well I have my wife in hand" sort of way. Either bragging, or "you should do this too".
I doubt he would have expected his friend to tell his wife - why on earth would he do that? I doubt John would ever tell Jane about stuff like that if he heard it from someone else.
So he probably thought he was safe telling a man because it wouldn't ever get back to his wife.
Arrogant, and wrong.

I agree with others that you may not get anywhere with Jane at this time, but a timely "always here if you need me" message may give her the strength to get out at some point, if she needs to.

Also agree that a gushingly smoochy relationship on FB is probably to hide the reality - people actually in real fully loved-up long term relationships don't feel the need to shout about it on FB - so don't set too much store by those pics/ comments.

I hope that you might be able to get Jane to open up a bit about John's treatment of her but definitely take a step away from John yourself, as you've decided to do - I don't like the sound of him one little bit!

each time she gave birth he would write a long heartfelt essay, praising her to the skies & thanking her for the “giving me such a strong son / beautiful daughter.”

How nauseating. I wonder what would have happened if she'd been inconsiderate enough to "give" him a "weak" son with, say, heart problems?

OP, could you take a morning off work and arrange to meet Jane for a coffee?

@Boysmomma .. are you my friend?? Except that you are no longer with your husband and she is

A lot of your points seem uncannily close to home. Thank you for sharing and i’m so glad you’re out of that situation now

I’ve been so moved by all the thoughtful and caring responses. Thank you to everyone for taking the time and for all the brilliant insights and ideas.

I might get a bit flamed for this, but I really want to be honest in case anyone else I’d grappling with someone like this.

Lots of people think a chat to Jane on her own would be in order (as @Miscible suggests I take a morning off work and meet for coffee) and I agree.

I do want to chat to Jane but am going to wait. DS and I are still slightly vulnerable I feel (not for physical violence or anything - just “drama llama” stuff, like with the party).

John felt proprietary enough about DS to try and impose himself on the party so I need to create some distance so that won’t happen again!

He is a big man and always (to me) bit stern and surly. I don’t think he means to be intimidating but sometimes he can be slightly scary.

So for a few reasons, I’ve decided not to send Ben over there for play dates (but Sam and Lucy can come here every fortnight).

I’d decided this even before the party ... after his last visit, Ben said “I’m glad we don’t have a daddy in our house, daddies are mean!”

but once i’m feeling safer myself, i’ll definitely offer more support and a kind ear to Jane

I do feel a bit cowardly to hold back. I’ve got lunch next week with two friends who know the situation well (one is married to the Tech Friend) and I might feel stronger after that.

I’m quite isolated with this issue - my family think John is a Top Bloke , while most of my friends wasted their hands years ago!

This is why this thread has been invaluable to me.

I know i’ll be re-reading all your comments for moral support so thanks again

And I will be referring back so if anything else comes to mind please add 😊💕

Oops my answer got chopped in half .. I meant, I might get flamed for not raising this with Jane now! Typing on phone!

I do feel a bit cowardly to hold back

I don't think you are, I think you're right. You and your son are your priority. Stepping in now might inflame the situation whilst John will already be on guard because of the party. Let the dust settle, take a step back and assess things. When you get the opportunity just quietly let your friend know you're there for her, in some way that is untraceable by John - which basically means face to face.

It is fine to take a pause before you decide whether and how to engage. Your friends who also know the situation will be good to very gently check facts.

By the way, OP, you are doing amazingly well. If you are surrounded by people who don't like women (which your friends and family must be, if they think this arrogant sexist prick is 'wonderful') and you have managed to stand up to John, and raise a DS who isn't impressed by creepy men, you are strong and smart.

John is clearly controlling Jane but doesn't 'trust' that she is fully trained and so can't allow her contact with potentially dangerous others. Ie friends - especially those that predate him.

So he 'needs' to accompany her - eg hen night. But this looks odd and controlling. Therefore he needs a reason to be present. Preferably one that makes him look good and bestowing a favour.

He needed a reason to be present at your son's party. Hence he volunteered to be football coach. You rightly refused his kind offer to bestow a favour that you didn't want or need.

Bracketing the drama, the upshot was that John could not attend and so Jane also could not attend. She is not allowed to go anywhere 'risky' without him. Either they both attend or neither of them attend. So a relative brought the kids.

Don't let him force you out and isolate her further. He is not trying to control you or your DS. You don't even exist as real people with feelings to him - you are just weapons of control.

Continue to be there for her in safe ways and continue to model a different way of being. If you say anything she might offer it up to him to reinterpret along the lines that you are jealous and misguided. You got a whiff of it - imagine living it 24/7.

I agree. Bide your time, as going in bulldozing might earn her and the children a tense few days at home.

When I exited my abusive relationship, the best support I had was the friend who let me know in not-so-many words that they would unequivocally be there for me, even if we lost touch or fell out. I'm ashamed to say that I did distance myself from her as I sensed she saw through the facade. She did. She had my ex clocked for a fucker long before I did but she realised that if she told me, I wasn't ready to hear and also he would find a way to alienate me away from her.

BTW, 15 years in and DP has never checked my phone, or vice versa. But I know if I was troubled about something and asked him, he would offer his phone over right away to check and I'd do the same. Neither of us have anything to hide but respect each other's privacy and the privacy of those who text us.

I don't think you're wrong to hold fire for now, give yourself some space to work out how to approach her and do it in such a way that keeps her safe and doesn't put her off confiding in you if she needs to.

...they’re the gooiest, schmoopiest couple on Facebook!! each time she gave birth he would write a long heartfelt essay, praising her to the skies & thanking her for the “giving me such a strong son / beautiful daughter.”

That is neither gooey nor schmoozy. It is a huge red flag.

That is a statement of ownership of the children, and shows he thinks of her as a brood mare or other livestock.

She does not give him children. This is wrong on so many fronts.

I suspect he chose Jane in initially as she was a woman perhaps with low self esteem, perhaps looking for some sort of white knight.

He no doubt made it clear to her that he was doing her some sort of massive favour by 'accepting' the fact that she had a prior relationship and a child to boot. This would have immediately put her on the back foot.

I agree with SGB - this was probably his way of putting her on the back foot as the relationship developed (after an initial love bombing that hooked her), and is now used as leverage to keep her under his thumb. It is likely that he may punish the older child disproportionately if Jane steps out of line, or excludes the older child from family events, or the older child gets a lesser birthday or Christmas gift than the others, as well as a threat hanging over Jane's head of financial support being withheld (agree with SGB). This could be implied very easily by setting up some distinction between her child and their children together. Even simple use of the term 'your DC' in a colder tone of voice than normal might be enough to cause her to worry.

On the other side, I don't think I could listen to any of my friends back then if they had approached me. I was 'safer' where I was, appeasing him for protection against his outbursts. When I did get the strength to leave I had a small few friends waiting for me, it made all the difference. I've lost so many people but knowing they were there made it possible.

Boysmomma
That was an amazing, insightful post. It exactly describes how control is exerted and how a victim feels.
(Also BobtheDuvet)

@QwertyLou, I think you should contact the woman who told you about the syncing of the phone/iPad.

I have the feeling she may have passed this on to you because it didn't sit right with her, and I suspect she has heard or seen a good few details just as you have, that the two of you could piece together.

I would ask her not to include her husband in any conversations on this topic, especially if he and John are drinking buddies or do any jock-type hobby or sport together or if there is any suspicion that they are both into porn. The fact that John shared his technical triumph with the husband may indicate that John was bragging, as ThumbWitch says, feels completely comfortable in his misogyny, assumes the husband shares his feelings, or is testing the waters for a reaction in order to judge how easy it would be to dislodge the woman from friendship with Jane.

If it turns out that the husband has shared some worries about John and Jane with the wife, then by all means include him but he needs to keep his mouth firmly shut around John if he is in the loop. Any cooling of the air between the husband and John needs to be avoided too because John will take it out on Jane and/or the children, especially the oldest.

If the other woman shares your worries and is willing to work with you, maybe the two of you could approach Jane and ask her if she would accept a cheap phone from the two of you that she is to keep secret from John. Observe her reaction.

Look her straight in the eye and tell her in serious tones that no matter how deep in a hole she may believe she is, and no matter what she may believe about her lack of choices, that there are always options, and that the two of you (and maybe other friends too) have her back. Assure her of your unending patience, that you understand she may well be taken aback by your suggestions, that she may be offended or embarrassed, but that you are there for her no matter what.

I think you need to talk to the two friends who know the situation well when you have lunch with them, and after that if you and the friends decide something is amiss, maybe contact other mutual friends who have washed their hands of it all - any who might be willing to offer practical help to Jane at any rate.

I agree with KeepOnKeepingOn that John is trying to sever prior relationships Jane had, and that you and DS are merely ciphers to him. If Jane has been parroting stuff to you about single motherhood or how tough DS has it without a father, then it is likely John could plant any other thoughts into her head about you too, and I would expect this to be done soon by John in light of your failure to roll over and cede the party to John. I suspect your uppityness has not gone unnoticed and there will be a reaction.

So while I can easily understand your desire to step back a bit and recover from the extremely unpleasant encounter you had with something that is actually very evil, I do urge you to get the ball rolling with other friends, and to plan on having a little chat with Jane in maybe 4-6 weeks time.

Anyone who says and believes that 'boys will be boys' is a dick. And already gearing up to excuse crappy behaviour because they're boys, dontcha know.

Sigh#

Dragons - rtft - its moved on massively since the party