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Original poster

"Will not be a Prince or Princess"

134 replies

cjt110 · 15/10/2018 11:41

"The child will come behind his or her father Prince Harry in the line of succession, bumping his uncle, the Duke of York, further down the line into eighth place.

However the child will not be given the title of prince or princess unless the Queen steps into change the rules. Instead a son would be styled the Earl of Dumbarton, while a daughter would be Lady (first name) Mountbatten-Windsor."

Can anyone explain why this is the case. Charlotte and George both hold Prince/ss titles - I assume as they are further up the line of succession.

But Beatrice and Eugenie are Princesses... Is that because prior to Charlotte and George being born, when they were born they were higher up the line of succession?

OP posts:
Butterymuffin · 15/10/2018 19:48

As for Edward inheriting the title Duke of Edinburgh, that's a crime. 'Favourite son' or not, he will never live up to Prince Philip.

Well, with Edward's lack of public racist comments or alleged cheating on his wife, yes, he will indeed fail to live up to his father's standards. Hmm

Catmatrat · 15/10/2018 19:48

Love the Queen for bending the rules to make K&W younger kids princess and prince too 🙄

Catmatrat · 15/10/2018 19:49

😍**

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The royal family
SenecaFalls · 15/10/2018 19:55

The Queen changed the rule when it was known that Kate was pregnant. It coincided with the elimination of male-preference primogeniture in the succession to the throne. If the Queen had not made the change and George had been a girl, she would not have been a Princess under the LP of 1917, even though the future queen.

LucyFox · 15/10/2018 20:37

In case anyone is remotely interested, the Queen was born a Princess as a male line grandchild of a king, however before Prince Charles was born, letters patent had to be rushed through as it was realised that a child of a daughter of a King, even one expected to inherit the throne, was not automatically a Prince or Princess & if LP hadn’t been rushed through, we would have had an heir to the throne who wasn’t a Prince. LP designated that all children of “Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh” would have the title of Prince/Princess.
I suspect LP will be issued for Harry’s children as they will be in the “inner circle” when Charles becomes king but it will end with them (ie their children won’t get the title just as the Dukes of Kent/Gloucester are princes but their children aren’t & Beatrice/Eugenies children won’t be)

onceandneveragain · 15/10/2018 20:38

Agree with Butterymuffin - as much as I don't really agree with the aristocracy and royalty in general, now they've sorted out the first born of either sex thing for the RF they need to do so with all the other titles. It's unfair that Harry's child will be an Earl if male but not a Countess if female. I'm surprised none of these aristocratic families (particularly ones where there are no sons so the title dies out completely) have taken it to the ECHR yet, it's a blatant case of gender discrimination.

WinnieTheW0rm · 15/10/2018 20:56

What it actually boils down to is that the 'top two' of breeding age in each generation of the successive get the Royal styles of prince/ss (two, because young families tend to travel/holiday together so you still need a spare in case of disaster). It came about by accident, but seems to fit as a rule of thumb.

Longevity means there are more generations around, but if you see it from bottom up, with the 'top two' breeding age, then upwards, it sort of makes sense.

Ratitatita · 15/10/2018 20:58

What if Charles dies before the Queen?

If Harry's child is not a prince when the Queen dies, would he/she become one as nephew/niece of the monarch (King William) or would he/she have missed the boat?

SenecaFalls · 15/10/2018 20:58

I'm not so sure about Harry and Meghan's children. I think that the decision to reduce the style of Edward and Sophie's children was not really so that they could lead a lower-profile life, but more in keeping with the professed desire of Charles to simplify and make smaller the Royal Family. At the time, it would have been difficult to do that with new letters patent because it would have affected the status of Beatrice and Eugenie. But going forward with the next generation, I think we are likely to see that only children in the direct line of succession and those that will become children of a monarch will have the title prince and princess.

Bluntness100 · 15/10/2018 21:12

I would be very surprised if Harry/Meghans child was not made a prince or princess, they would become one anyway on Charles taking rhe throne, so I strongly suspect they will just do it from birth.

I also think Charles will want it. He's actually very close to both his children from what I understand and William and harry are very close, so if the new baby isn't a prince or princess it will be because Harry and Meghan declined it, which is also unlikely.

BettyBooJustDoinTheDoo · 15/10/2018 21:20

Prince Andrew is entitled as son of a monarch for his daughters to be titled as Princess, but this makes him a pompous arse. If Harry accepts the titles of Prince/Princess for his children as grandchild of the current monarch will this make Harry even more of a pompous arse than Andrew?

LivLemler · 15/10/2018 21:27

I think Harry and Meghan will take a similar approach to Edward and Sophie and no letters patent will be issued. I think their children will be Lord/Lady and even though they will automatically become Prince/Princess on the Queen's death, they won't use that title. Just like James and Louise now.

MingaTurtle · 15/10/2018 21:28

When Charles is King, the Sussex’s baby will be in exactly the same position in relation to the King as the York princesses are to the Queen. Given the comments about Andrew being grasping about his daughters getting to be princesses, it would make sense for the baby not to be made a prince or princess.

susurration · 15/10/2018 21:34

Prince of Wales is not an inherited title from father to son, it's one conferred on the male heir by the reigning monarch. The Princess Royal is the same, that is solely within the gift of the monarch for their eldest daughter or grand-daughter. It's probable that Princess Charlotte will eventually be given the title of The Princess Royal, after Princess Anne passes.

StormCloudsDoClear · 15/10/2018 21:42

I think it would make sense for Harry's children to be prince/s. When Charles takes the throne he only has 2 offspring, unlike his mother who had 4. Only 2 immediate blood line descendants to the throne with probably 2 or 3 children each.

Should anything happen to one young family, you'd want the other to have equal title from the get go.

Once William takes he throne he will have (at present) 3 offspring all of whom will take on only being able to pass on titles and hold direct bloodlines.

As you will see with Eugine should she have children her title will die with her and not be passed on to children, much like what will happen with Harry's. His grandchildren will not be HRH but his child will be just incase catastrophe strikes. Then should baby Sussex become monarch the HRHing continues but no crown then no need for it to continue.

SenecaFalls · 15/10/2018 21:45

I don't think that the Queen will issue letters patent making the children of Harry and Meghan prince/princess. It would really be hard to justify that when Edward's children are denied that style. And I actually think it likely that when Charles is king, he will issue new letters patent reducing the use of prince and princess. So I think it is unlikely that the children of Harry and Meghan will ever be known as prince/princess. I think that what happened with Edward and Sophie's children was the harbinger of things to come.

ForalltheSaints · 15/10/2018 21:49

Lady Alice or Lord Alexander Mountbatten-Windsor sounds OK to me.

serenmoon · 15/10/2018 21:50

What is the significance of the title HRH? I mean does it come with anything?

SenecaFalls · 15/10/2018 21:59

I'm voting for Lady Doria. Smile

But Alice is good too. Prince Philip's mother, Princess Alice of Battenberg was a truly remarkable woman.

I think that Philip, Earl of Dumbarton is also a possibility for a boy.

Bluntness100 · 15/10/2018 22:04

It would really be hard to justify that when Edward's children are denied that style

Edward and Sophie declined the titles for their kids. They were entitled as Edward is rhe son of a monarch. It was not withheld from them. There was no harbinger. Anne also declined for her kids. Although she was not automatically entitled as she is rhe daughter, but the queen offered.

And Harry's kids become prince or princess when Charles ascends rhe thrown anyway. As they will be the child of a son of rhe monarch.

So unless they refuse it then yes, Harry's kids will be prince or princess at some point.

StormCloudsDoClear · 15/10/2018 22:06

@serenmoon

HRH is basically a nod to the fact that you are a close relation to the monarch and their divine right to rule.

When a monarch is blessed with the oil from the holy land during the coronation they are said to "transform" and inherit a divine right. I think people forget this part of monarchy and how enriched and entwined it is with the Christian faith.

So they like to keep that divine bloodline going and title those "blessed" by birth right.

SenecaFalls · 15/10/2018 22:07

What is the significance of the title HRH?

In the UK, it's an honorific associated with being a prince or princess (in the case of a woman, by blood or by marriage). The exception to that was when Philip was created His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh on his wedding day. For some reason, George VI did not make him a prince of the United Kingdom. Elizabeth did correct that later after she became Queen and made him a prince. Of course, Philip was born a prince of Greece, but he renounced that title before he married the Queen.

sprinkleofsunshine · 15/10/2018 22:09

I thought it was up to the queen to gift them the title of prince/princess...atleast that is what I heard on loose women today anyway Hmm

Butterymuffin · 15/10/2018 22:09

Do the Royals still follow the rule of heirs in the line of succession (eg William and George) travelling separately so the whole line doesn't get wiped out in the event of a plane crash or similar?

SenecaFalls · 15/10/2018 22:10

Edward and Sophie declined the titles for their kids.

I'm pretty sure that the statement that was issued at the time said that it was the Queen's decision, with their consent. And it was done before they had children. I'm pretty sure that it was part of the announcement of his being given the title Earl of Wessex, which was on his wedding day.

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