"Will not be a Prince or Princess"

[cjt110]

"The child will come behind his or her father Prince Harry in the line of succession, bumping his uncle, the Duke of York, further down the line into eighth place.

However the child will not be given the title of prince or princess unless the Queen steps into change the rules. Instead a son would be styled the Earl of Dumbarton, while a daughter would be Lady (first name) Mountbatten-Windsor."

Can anyone explain why this is the case. Charlotte and George both hold Prince/ss titles - I assume as they are further up the line of succession.

But Beatrice and Eugenie are Princesses... Is that because prior to Charlotte and George being born, when they were born they were higher up the line of succession?

Current line of succession is

CHARLES
William
George
Charlotte
Louis
Harry
Harry’s child

ANDREW
Beatrice
Eugenie

EDWARD
James
Louise

ANNE
Peter
Savannah
Isla
Zara
Mia
Lena

So H&M's first child would be a Lord or Viscount Duke or something but if they had another child after the Queen passes, that child could be a Prince or princess. Weird and illogical

Someone further down said the first child would be "upgraded" so that all were the same

All of his grandchildren would become HRH Prince/ss when he becomes King.

Same as William and Harry will become HRH The Prince William and HRH The Prince Henry (as opposed to bog standard HRH Prince William) the moment their father becomes King.

Ah - I see you changed James and Louise later!

I find the layers of protocol interesting, but I'm glad I don't need to keep track of it closely!

It seems sensible for William and Harry's children to be HRH in the circumstances - it must be unusual to have so many generations of heirs to the crown at one time (Queen, Charles, William, George)

Bellinisurge

You are utterly wrong. Read TFT and you will find the correct answers.

And the Queens cousins DO have titles - HRH Prince Edward, Duke of Kent. HRH Prince Michael of Kent , HRH Princess Alexandra of Kent, HRH Prince Richard , Duke of Gloucester, HRH Prince William of Gloucester ( deceased). The cousins she has through her aunt Mary Princess Royal are NOT HRH because they were the grandchildren of a monarch through a female line which means - just like Anne’s children and Princess Margaret’s children - they were not entitled to any automatic titles. Margaret’s children took their titles from their father ( Lord Linely ( now Earl Snowden )and LADY Sarah Armstrong Jones ( Now Lady Sarah Chatto) . The Princess Royal , Mary Countess of Herewood took their titles from their father - e actly like Margaret’s children did. They were two boys though and so the second son became an honourable.

Loving Gazelda's addition of Danny Dyer - who is descended from royalty according to 'Who Do You Think You Are?'

Wouldn't it be refreshing if Meghan stuck to her 'modern' approach and took no titles for her children?

As for Edward inheriting the title Duke of Edinburgh, that's a crime. 'Favourite son' or not, he will never live up to Prince Philip.

@lalalalyra

What’s the difference between HRH The Prince William and HRH Prince William. What’s the significance of the The?

@CurlyWurlyTwirly

The "The" is only given to the children of the monarch.

It's basically the upgrade that they get that other grandchildren of the previous monarch don't get.

I think Anne and her then husband Captain Mark Phillips refused titles on their marriage. So when they had children there were no titles to refuse, as a princess can't hand down a title, whereas had they been Earls/Dukes there would have been. I've heard speculation Captain Phillips didn't want to lose his title of Captain, though I don't think there's ever been any confirmation that's true.

Although Edward is currently an Earl, he will become the Duke of Edinburgh when the title reverts to the crown.

After Zara's children:

Lord Snowdon
Lord Lynley
Lady Margarita Armstrong-Jones
Lady Sarah Chatto
Samuel Chatto
Arthur Chatto
HRH the Duke of Gloucester

Won't the Edinburgh title automatically go to Charles rather than revert to the Crown, as he's the eldest son? But I guess he can then bequeath it to Edward. Although I'm not sure if it's ever been confirmed that Edward will be the next DoE, guess we won't have to wait too long to find out. Louis and Charlotte will probably get the Duke of York and Princess Royal titles eventually, but give the longevity of the Windsors may have to wait many years!

Edinburgh will go to Charles if he's not King, then the Crown. Or straight to the Crown if he's already King when Philip dies. Charles will have to bestow it on Edward once he is King for him to have it.

He can't leave a title to his youngest son. If Charles died before Philip then it would be even more messy as it would go to Andrew and then it would never merge with the crown until he died without a son.

If Charles died before Philip then wouldn't it go to William?

No. It reverts to the Crown. It was created for Phillip.

It's to do with the direct line of succession. They won't be in it as the niece and nephew of a king so don't get the title.

I doubt the queen will step in over it. The only reason she changed the law before George was born was so it didn't matter if he was a girl or boy, he would be the heir.

She didn't change the law before George was born. UK Parliament plus all the other Parliaments of countries where Queen is head of State did it.

She didn't change the law before George was born. UK Parliament plus all the other Parliaments of countries where Queen is head of State did it.

She changed the Letters Patent on titles before George was born. Although succession rules had changed the LP's still had only the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales as HRH Prince. So a first born girl would have been Lady Windsor and in line to be Queen whereas a younger brother would be HRH Prince.

The Queen's stance on this will very much depend on Charles, therefore I wouldn't be at all surprised for LP's to be issued. Charles will want his grandchildren as HRH Prince/ss when he's King so will likely have them styled that way from birth.

If Charles died before Philip then wouldn't it go to William?

No. If Charles died before Philip then Andrew would receive any automatic transferance from his father as the eldest son. There's no automatic inheritance from Grandfather to grandson in that case.

Just like if Charles died before the Queen William would never be Duke of Cornwall or Prince of Wales as these are titles for the eldest son of the monarch. They wouldn't go to grandson level.

My head hurts

No. It reverts to the Crown. It was created for Phillip.

I think that it would go to William if Charles has predeceased him when Philip dies. It would pass as most titles of nobility to the grandson. It would not go to Andrew.

Just like if Charles died before the Queen William would never be Duke of Cornwall or Prince of Wales as these are titles for the eldest son of the monarch.

The Queen could make William Prince of Wales.

The Dukedom of Cornwall is for the heir apparent who is also the eldest son of the monarch. But Prince of Wales is for the heir apparent. That can be a grandson.

My head hurts

Wait until Queenie corks it and titles get reviews, re used, passed on etc.

George V started off as a Prince, became Duke of York, Earl of Inverness and Baron Killarney, when his older brother died he became Duke of Cornwall and was then made Prince of Wales before ending up as King.

As others have said

HRH Prince/Princess automatically goes to Grandchildren of the male line ,and ‘the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales. i.e. George.

Thus automatically entitled with no further action from the HM = William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise, James, George

Phillip and Zara were never entitled to be HRH Prince/Princess. If Mark Phillips had accepted a title (probably Duke/Earl), they’d be been styled Lord/Lady. But he refused, so no titles for them

Letters Patent issued decreed Louise/James would be styled as Daughter/Son of an Earl, by Edward/Sophie’s request.

Letters Patent issued also meant Charlotte/Louis got HRH Prince/Princess when they were born. If they hadn’t, and had been Lord/Lady, they would automatically have been ‘upgraded’ when Charles becomes King.

Baby Sussex will be styled Lord/Lady unless HM intervenes. But would get Prince/Princess when Charles is King.

I wish the Queen would issue something that allowed titles to come from women. The idea that Andrew wants Jack to be given a title because that's the route to his future grandkids having titles, when it's Beatrice who's the actual royal one but would then be deemed to be 'gaining' the family title through marriage, is just absurd.

Second most absurd is the bit where Harry and Meghan's child will be a prince/ss but not till the Queen has died. Won't blame her at all for just putting that into effect from day one.