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Original poster

"Will not be a Prince or Princess"

134 replies

cjt110 · 15/10/2018 11:41

"The child will come behind his or her father Prince Harry in the line of succession, bumping his uncle, the Duke of York, further down the line into eighth place.

However the child will not be given the title of prince or princess unless the Queen steps into change the rules. Instead a son would be styled the Earl of Dumbarton, while a daughter would be Lady (first name) Mountbatten-Windsor."

Can anyone explain why this is the case. Charlotte and George both hold Prince/ss titles - I assume as they are further up the line of succession.

But Beatrice and Eugenie are Princesses... Is that because prior to Charlotte and George being born, when they were born they were higher up the line of succession?

OP posts:
CecilyNeville · 15/10/2018 12:10

The Queen and Margaret were both HRH princesses from birth, even though their father was not intended to ever be a king. They were the same distance from the throne as Beatrice and Eugenie (children of the second male child of the reigning monarch). So doesn't make Andrew out of step - rather that Anne and Edward chose otherwise.

halcyondays · 15/10/2018 12:10

I was just thinking that Nico.

CecilyNeville · 15/10/2018 12:10

B and E at the time of their birth I mean; not now.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

The royal family
PawneeParksDept · 15/10/2018 12:11

Andrew didn't insist they were entitled as the children of the male line of the monarch

Edwards were similarly entitled but he turned it down in favour of styling them as Earls children.

Andrew wanted the titles

Anne wasn't entitled as a female descendant The Queen offered her children titles as a rule change but she declined them

The Letters Patent do not extend to great grandchildren of the monarch and had to be changed at the birth of Prince George to include the children of the eldest son of the Prince Of Wales, so not Harry's

It's based around proximity to the monarchy not just ' being Royal'

TaggieRR · 15/10/2018 12:11

Re Edward being an Earl, I thought he was to become Duke of Edinburgh when Philip dies

lalalalyra · 15/10/2018 12:13

Only the grandchildren of the monarch, on the male line, are entitled to titles - William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise and James are all automatically entitled to HRH Prince/Princess.

Andrew didn't have to push for titles for his children.

Further to that the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of wales is entitled, automatically to HRH Prince... The Queen issued letters patent to add all children of William to that. Basically so that if George was a girl she wasn't given a lesser title to a brother.

Harry's children, unless the Queen issues LP's (which I think she will) will be Lord/Lady until Charles becomes King, at which point as Grandchildren of the monarch on the male line they'll become HRH Prince/Princess. That change is why I think the Queen will 'upgrade' them from birth.

EnriqueTheRingBearingLizard · 15/10/2018 12:13

Angela
'I’ve never understood why Edward is only an Earl when his brothers are Dukes? What’s that about?'

I've read that on Phillip's death, the title Duke of Edinburgh will pass to Edward.

Yes, I believe Edward and Sophie turned down the styling of Princess and Prince and Andrew and Sarah didn't turn it down for their daughters.

All to do with the slimming down of the immediate royal family going forward as subsequent members move further away from the succession.

Mhw02 · 15/10/2018 12:13

No, Beatrice and Eugenie were entitled to the title Princess, as they were children of a son of the monarch. Louise and James were also entitled to the titles Princess and Prince, but their parents chose for them to be styled as children of an Earl, presumably because they were so far removed from the throne, and their parents wanted them to be as normal as possible.

Peter and Zara, as children of the daughter of a monarch, were never entitled to the Prince and Princess titles. Princess Anne, on marriage, turned down a title for her husband (which would have been a Dukedom or Earldom) which would have entitled her children to be styled as Lord and Lady.

Charlotte and Louis weren't entitled to be styled as Princess and Prince, but the Queen changed the rules to give all of William and Kate's children equal status (and probably also in recognition of the fact that everyone would call them Princess and Prince anyway!)

Dontfeellikeamillenial · 15/10/2018 12:13

Ahhhhhh!! She's pregnant!

I knew it!

Wine
LittleBookofCalm · 15/10/2018 12:14

That has been offered to Edward

lalalalyra · 15/10/2018 12:14

So what will be interesting if this kid isn’t a prince/princess what would happen if they have a second kid in a few years and by then Charles is king? You’d have an older sibling who isn’t a prince/princess and a younger one who could be.

The moment Charles becomes King all of his grandchildren become HRH Prince/Princess, regardless of what they are born as.

lalalalyra · 15/10/2018 12:16

Also Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh after his brother becomes King.

If Philip dies before Charles is King his titles will pass to his eldest son. When Charles then becomes King his titles will merge with the Crown and be available for recreation.

If Charles becomes King before Philip dies then on Philip's death his title will merge with the crown and be available for recreation.

It can't pass directly to Edward on Philip's death.

SoupDragon · 15/10/2018 12:17

That's from Wikipedia, the King in question being George V.
I'd like to see it changed to 'eldest living child' rather than son. Perhaps it will be, although it's not of pressing importance seeing that the first three in line are all male.

Might that have already changed when they amended the line of succession to "first born child" before George was born?

lalalalyra · 15/10/2018 12:25

Might that have already changed when they amended the line of succession to "first born child" before George was born?

It hasn't changed yet. AFAIK that's why the Queen issued LP's to say all of William's children would be HRH Prince/ss. To avoid any 'sister is lesser' issues - especially when the situation could have been a Lady Windsor who was going to be Queen with a HRH Prince younger brother.

There's lots of issues wrapped up in that one that will need resolved at some point - The Cornwall Dutchy for example can't be inherited by a girl at the moment. The Wales Princedom is reserved for an eldest son rather than child.

Tbh, I imagine they were relieved George was a boy. They could sort the succession one and not worry about the rest of them yet.

SputnikBear · 15/10/2018 12:27

Grandchildren (ie Beatrice and Eugenie) get HRH. Great grandchildren (ie Harry’s child) do not (an exception was made to allow Williams children to have HRH which they wouldn’t normally have had).

AceAcer · 15/10/2018 12:27

Prince Andrew insisted on his daughters being given the title of I remember correctly

Wow, even the monarch's son isn't averse to a bit of social climbing.

MynameisJune · 15/10/2018 12:28

Only grandchildren of the male line are entitled, but the female line.

Andrew didn’t have to insist, it’s protocol.

SputnikBear · 15/10/2018 12:29

Andrew didn’t insist. As grandchildren they were fully entitled to have HRH.

lalalalyra · 15/10/2018 12:29

Wow, even the monarch's son isn't averse to a bit of social climbing.

As bad as we know he is, this isn't one he is guilty of. The two York girls were automatically entitled to their titles.

canyouhearthedrums · 15/10/2018 12:35

I stand corrected, he insisted that they be under the payroll as undertaking Royal duties. The RF turned this down and Andrew was kicking his heels. Don't know what the outcome was.

halcyondays · 15/10/2018 12:40

They don't do Royal duties.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 15/10/2018 12:42

William's children weren't entitled to the titles, but the Queen issued a declaration (letters patent?) that allowed it. IIRC I think she offered Princess Anne the titles for her dc too, but Anne chose not to accept. I'm sure she will offer Harry the same, especially as his father is Heir Apparent.

lalalalyra · 15/10/2018 12:44

George, as the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales, was entitled.

She'll likely do the same for Harry's children as she did for Charlotte and Louis because they'll become HRH Prince/ss when Charles becomes King. And there's no way Charles won't want his grandchildren to be titled. Be easier for them to be Prince/ss from day one than changing their name at whatever age.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 15/10/2018 12:46

The Cornwall Dutchy for example can't be inherited by a girl at the moment. The Wales Princedom is reserved for an eldest son rather than child.
Isn't the Queen Laird of somewhere and Duke of somewhere else? hark at my technical knowledge. Would Charlotte, if she had been born before George, not have been able to follow her great gran's footsteps?

Undercoverbanana · 15/10/2018 12:57

Have I got this order right?

Trying to discuss with people the line to the throne.

Charles
William
George
Charlotte
Lewis
Harry
Harry/Meghan’s baby
Anne
Anne’s son - Linley or something?
Not sure if Linley has children
Zara
Mia
Recent new baby of Zara’s
Andrew
Beatrice
Eugenie
Edward
Edward’s children (not sure if he has any)