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Original poster

My DD is confused and a bit upset by gender fluid teacher

354 replies

CosmicCanary · 17/09/2018 18:12

DD is 11 and in her second full week at high school.
We were going through her home work today and part of it is drama.
She needs to learn the meaning of various words such as reflection, preformance spontaneous etc.
DD loves drama and is very enthusiastic about it now being a weekly lesson. I asked if she was enjoying it and she said yes but she is confused.
She said she does not know what to call her teacher.
I said Ms, Mr or Mrs last name.
DD said its not like that. The teacher has said they can call her Ms Mr or Dr as they are gender fluid and their pronoun is they.

I said well call them by any of those then if they dont mind. DD said its hard as the teacher is a Ms/she/woman and although she is trying hard to remember the they pronoun she (DD) keeps getting it wrong.

DD is a very kind and does not want to upset her teacher as she likes her/him/they very much. DD is also scared as she does not want to get in to trouble as, and I quote "misgendering is a crime".

I have reassured DD that her teacher has said its fine to call her Ms Mr or Dr so she has nothing to be scared of and wont upset the teacher.

In private I am very angry. My DD has enough to deal with and worry about just starting high school and now she has to deal with a teachers chosen identity and the worry that if she slips up because despite the short hair and Mr reference her teacher is a woman.

This is not trans bashing before that gets thrown at me I am just upset my DD has to deal with this when it only benefits the teacher and causes distress to a child.

OP posts:
Bimgy85 · 17/09/2018 20:46

This reply has been deleted

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WrongOnTInternet · 17/09/2018 20:49

Not rtft. While contacting the school to ask for confirmation about what to call the teacher, as your newbie daughter is upset and doesn't want to insult anyone, you might also ask something about how they are going to assess use of correct pronouns in English lessons with all this going on.

MajesticWhine · 17/09/2018 20:49

When this teacher had to fill in forms or register for services they will need to pick a title. They can't put down 3 different ones. Would have been much better to just pick one to tell the kids. Attention seeking and ridiculous.

sansouci · 17/09/2018 20:49

Cosmic, I assure you that it is not a "non-issue" for adults!

DickTERFin · 17/09/2018 20:57

They are an insufferable narcissist because they are prioritising the validation of their identity over clarity and a comfortable learning environment for their students.

If they desire to not be referred to by their sex and they have to option of being called Dr because they have a PhD, then do that, I'm not saying they are wrong for it. Say, "Hi, I'm Dr Drama, I prefer it if you refer to me as "they" instead of he or she, because (insert reasons) but don't worry if you forget". Adapt the rules? Sure, but be clear and consistent.

But giving 11 year olds the "choice" of two sexed titles, one unisex title whilst insisting on a non-sexed pronoun is deeply self indulgent and incredibly confusing. My child with SEN would not for the life of him be able to keep it straight and it would cause him huge anxiety if he thought he was going to get into trouble over it (which would perversely make it even harder for him to keep straight). Whether purposeful or not it is destabilising and the ambiguity teters on the edge of being an abuse of power "get the riddle right, or get in trouble", type of thing. An adults feelings should never trump children's emotional and cognitive stability.

The teacher needs to pick a title and get over themselves.

YeTalkShiteHen · 17/09/2018 21:00

But giving 11 year olds the "choice" of two sexed titles, one unisex title whilst insisting on a non-sexed pronoun is deeply self indulgent and incredibly confusing. My child with SEN would not for the life of him be able to keep it straight and it would cause him huge anxiety if he thought he was going to get into trouble over it (which would perversely make it even harder for him to keep straight). Whether purposeful or not it is destabilising and the ambiguity teters on the edge of being an abuse of power "get the riddle right, or get in trouble", type of thing. An adults feelings should never trump children's emotional and cognitive stability.

I could have written this, it applies to my children too.

Original poster
CosmicCanary · 17/09/2018 21:01

River you are right!

I overlooked the 3 different titles thing and focused on the "crime"

Why give 11 yo that kind of choice? Christ even their lunch options are more limited.

I have spoken to 14 DS who is at the same school. The teacher is new this year and he has already had a drama lesson with the same teacher. I asked about the Ms Mr Dr thing and he said the teacher said something about being a Dr but wasnt really listening and he just calls her Miss.

OP posts:
lynsey91 · 17/09/2018 21:02

What a load of crap. I think I will start demanding to be called Duchess.

There is no way I would use "they". I would use "he", "she" or "it".

The teacher is a twat

Rebecca36 · 17/09/2018 21:03

"Hey You", would be a good way of addressing .... them.

BoneyBackJefferson · 17/09/2018 21:05

"Hey You", would be a good way of addressing .... them.

If they are perpared to kick up a stink about Ms, Mr and Dr can you imagine the diatribe over "Hey you"?

Goldenbug · 17/09/2018 21:12

"If they are prepared to kick up a stink about Ms, Mr and Dr..."

Kicking up a stink? They said they don't mind which one they get called. They're less picky than people who only want to be called Ms, how can it be harder for people?

Original poster
CosmicCanary · 17/09/2018 21:22

Gold why give 3 options?

Why if you are happy either way give children the added issue of choosing?

Children should be concentrating on the lesson and what is being taught not how to address the teacher.

DD it seems has a few issues. At 11 addressing somebody as Dr is totally new. All teachers to her have been Miss Mrs or Mr.
Issue 2 is addressing a female as Mr. DD knows Mr is male and her drama teacher is female.
Issue 3 is the pronoun they instead of he or she which is the normal everyday pronoun.

I am conflicted as to how to deal with this without lying to DD or causing her fyrther stress.

OP posts:
MaisyPops · 17/09/2018 21:40

But giving 11 year olds the "choice" of two sexed titles, one unisex title whilst insisting on a non-sexed pronoun is deeply self indulgent and incredibly confusing. My child with SEN would not for the life of him be able to keep it straight and it would cause him huge anxiety if he thought he was going to get into trouble over it (which would perversely make it even harder for him to keep straight). Whether purposeful or not it is destabilising and the ambiguity teters on the edge of being an abuse of power "get the riddle right, or get in trouble", type of thing. An adults feelings should never trump children's emotional and cognitive stability.
Round of applause Smile

Decide how you want to introduce yourself, tell people, let them get on with it.

I remember when I got married and I was still Miss Brown to lots of the older students until they left. Apparently Mrs Pops was weird. Sometimes they'd remember. Sometimes they wouldn't. Only an arsehole would get annoyed at them for it. Sometimes kids like things kept simple

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 17/09/2018 21:50

OP, I would tell your DD to go with 'Dr' and 'they' and leave it at that.

I'm a fully-fledged adult and haven't been at school for many, many years now, but even with my life experience, I could never, ever remember to keep referring to somebody - a single individual - as 'they'. Not out of any disrespect for a person's individual preferences or unkind desire to snub the person, but because, all my life from a very young age, I've always referred to a single known person as either 'he' or 'she'. These things are ingrained and are extremely difficult to unlearn.

It's like the tests that psychologists use, where they'll show you the word 'red' written in a green font, then 'black' written in blue and ask you to tell them instantly what colours twenty rapidly-appearing words are written in; or asking you to count a group of things using the numbers 1-10, but instead of assigning the numbers in their standard numerical order, having to assign them alphabetically as the number is spelled. But THEN, having to remember that you only count bananas alphabetically, buttons backwards-alphabetically and all other groups of things by using numbers normally UNLESS you've been told first thing that morning that these particular bricks like to be treated as buttons or that every 18th pile of marbles is to be treated as if they were bananas.

The end result is that people will have to stop and think very, very carefully every single time before they refer to you with a pronoun (and please don't tell me that we shouldn't need pronouns and should all be saying "I saw Dr Jones at school today - I told Dr Jones that I really liked Dr Jones's new coat and I asked Dr Jones where Dr Jones had bought Dr Jones's new coat from") - and they will naturally be afraid of getting it wrong. This causes division and forces people to 'other' as they desperately try to remember a potentially different (possibly also dynamic depending on the day) pronoun for every non-traditionally-conforming person when the easiest thing in the world for effective, natural communication is to instinctively say 'she' or 'he' based on very obvious characteristics and/or name.

BoneyBackJefferson · 17/09/2018 21:57

Goldenbug

They clearly mind or they wouldn't give the options.
Frankly (as has been stated) one male, one female and a non gender specific is just being an arse.

tempester28 · 17/09/2018 22:02

Surely her title and name is on school paperwork or her office door or the teacher list ect. I would email the school to clarify. Sounds very dramatic - if she had been a teacher at my school she probably would have been asked what's a pronoun - but times have changed.

Goldenbug · 17/09/2018 22:03

They clearly don't mind or they wouldn't give the options.

How is giving an option of 3 things more picky than the other teachers who only have one option?

MaisyPops · 17/09/2018 22:05

BoneyBackJefferson
Agreed!
Why not pick
how you wish to be known at school/work and get on with it?
Or if you're a Miss so and so but don't subscribe to gender roles, be Miss so and so, use female pronouns (because you're a woman), be delightfully not bound by gender stereotypes and live your life as a wonderful non confirming woman instead of confusing the hell out of 11 year old children to validate some sense of self you've created.

BoneyBackJefferson · 17/09/2018 22:07

Goldenbug

They have given a definitive list of options and a pronoun. how is it not picky?

we will have to agree too disagree

RiverTam · 17/09/2018 22:09

Why does a teacher need to have more than one option to give a child? Why muddy the waters in this way? How often does anyone meet anyone in any walk of life where were given these options? I’m late 40s and I can’t think of a single time I was given more than one title for anyone I’ve met. There was a Prof and a Dr at uni, but all we were told is I’m Prof X, you can call me Jane and that was it. Not, I’m Prof X but you can call me Prof X, or Ms X, I don’t mind. And please use a grammatically incorrect pronoun when talking about me to others. Jesus, even writing that last bit makes it so clear how narcissistic this is!

NobodyToVoteForNow · 17/09/2018 22:11

Tell your daughter not to worry - it's definitely not a crime. Then raise this point directly with the headteacher. Threatening a class of 11 year olds with the criminal justice system for something that is not a criminal offence is a breach of the school's duty of care to them and their human rights.

RiverTam · 17/09/2018 22:13

I bet you anything you like that the OP won’t be the only parent dealing with a confused child about this one teacher. How she must be revelling in how much attention she’s getting, how special and unique she is. A fucking teacher. Christ.

MaisyPops · 17/09/2018 22:15

Why does a teacher need to have more than one option to give a child?
Correct.
The only time I've seen staff give an option is when they have a difficult to pronounce (usually foreign with unusual spelling patterns/sounds) last name.
So I had a colleague called Mr Longlastnamethatnobodyeverused. He was Eastern European and he never used his last name so he said "Hi I'm Mr Full name but you can call me Mr Shortened if that's easier". Everyone used the shortened version.

Goldenbug · 17/09/2018 22:16

"picky:

adjective informal:

fussy and hard to please."

Teacher one: "Call me Mr Smith".
Teacher Two: "Call me Ms Thomas, or Mr Thomas, or Dr Thomas, I don't mind which."

Which is hardest to please? The one with only one option or the one with a choice of 3?

We will have to agree to disagree, but I'm right and you're...less right.

Smellybean · 17/09/2018 22:26

If it was my dd I would tell her to call her miss/ms and be done with it. If the teacher don’t like it. They can FO! Bloody ridiculous. I’m not explaining gender fluidity to an already stressed out 11 year old.