Victoria Derbyshire today - sharing birthing experiences online are scaring other women

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Hi all,

VD is due to discuss that online sharing of your birthing experience is frightening to women and pregnant women to the point of developing a phobia.

I have shared my experience on here and came to MN for advice from others when pregnant with DD2. I went overdue and, I have to admit, became pretty scared. I read loads of overdue / induction threads and I think it did add to my fear a little...but the fear was already there IYSWIM?

What are your views on this? Did reading other birth experiences affect you when pregnant?

It can be an extremely dangerous and damaging thing to do - to the point where I actually think it's wrong of people to be pleased when someone they know gets pregnant (or hope for it for others).
I recognise that I am odd though

Childbirth is normal - how else does the human race expect to procreate. Yes there are risks but I think that this attitude is scaremongering.

Most births are fine. And actually there are evidence that increased medicalisation carries extra risks. Childbirth is treated like a medical emergency - it should be treated as a normal process which requires support. It isn’t a disease or affliction to be treated.

Some people might not want to take the risk of a lifetime of incontinence for the sake of having a child

Mirri van is right about informed decision making being crucial so the side-eye is unnecessary. Incontinence, trauma and prolapse might mean a woman chooses to adopt or foster instead. Certainly there is a reason so many female obgyns opt for c-sections themselves and the 'conspiracy of silence' Naomi Wolf spoke of was very fucking real before the power of the internet.

I do agree to a point that some women if they are in full possession of the risks >> not just death which is not that common here but can of course happen, but the long term issues so many women have >> might decide not to have kids.

I think this is part of the reason that this thing saying women should shut up has come along.

In the past & in many countries women & girls have no choice over whether / when they get pregnant & whether they decide to have the baby.

In a small number of countries (looked at from a global persepctive) this choice can be made and increasingly women are choosing not to have kids for a variety of reasons.

This freaks people out TBH. A lot of people still think deep down that this is what women are for and that women's lives are only complete / worthwhile if they have children. The way women who have not had children for whatever reason get spoken to / about shows this up.

I think that society deep down is worried that lots of women will decide not to bother actually, and this (telling women to stop talking about it) might be a symptom.

Whatever country you're in and however good the healthcare is, it's still always statistically a risky thing to do. No reason to give about that, it's true. I mean if you're not a free diver or someone who likes riding motorbikes at 150 mph on normal roads type thing. For people with normal levels of risk in their lives, it remains risky. And espcially so in terms of long term injury, mental health as well.

So many women I know have "never been the same" after having their kids but this is a secret that women are supposed to carry, I think. We;ve started talking about it all, and comparing notes, and somehow that causes discomfort.

Look at the vagnial mesh scandal. Birth related. Women have the right to know, the right to talk, the right not to have to put up and shut up.

I actually had no idea about the extent of incontinence, fistulas etc until I started reading mumsnet and talking to friends about their post-birth experiences.

You know if any of this shit happened to men, it would be all over the media. It happens to women and we're reduced to talking in online forums and even that is not okay.

Women should know the risks and consequences of childbirth. Would you go into any other dangerous endeavour without weighing up the risks? Of course not.

Most births are fine
And yet MN started a campaign about better postnatal care because there is clearly a need - look at any number of threads about birth injury and pnd and raggedy bits threads...these women have often had to support each other because of the prevailing attitude that we should be grateful our children lived/were healthy etc Bollocks to that - women should not be silenced.

Because your tone is that childbirth is a massive risk- disproportionately so.

Of course it’s a risk.

As for the risk of incontinence - that partly comes from shitty after birth care. Other countries take care to support mothers - eg physio exercise etc etc. Plus some injuries come from medical interventions which may have been avoidable if different measures were taken earlier.

So it’s not as simple as suggesting that childbirth is really really risky which lets the medical establishment off the hook - there needs to be better support for mothers at all stages of pregnancy and post partum.

What exactly is the argument against mumsnet? Ignorance is bliss?

God yes, educated women are just such a TRIAL aren’t they. FFS

I’m not about silencing women.

But what I don’t like is the message that childbirth itself is the issue. It’s the use of forceps, of epidurals which mess with pushing, of having women on their backs to labour - those things can raise the risk of birth injuries.

I’m not denying any of this - it’s not a simple “oh childbirth is risky”. It’s the treatment of it by the medical profession.

Yes that is the natural way. How else do you think any species on this planet is going to survive without taking risks, including childbirth. The question is, just how much of a risk do you think it is. I think you’re over dramatising the risks because, thankfully, we have better chances of survival. However that doesn’t mean we let the medical profession off the hook (when doctors first got involved in childbirth, deaths went up until they realised they were bringing in germs).

But what I don’t like is the message that childbirth itself is the issue

But it is! If I hadn't attempted to give birth I wouldn't have the long term issues I do have. If I hadn't had the interventions I had, I wouldn't be alive. But the numerous health professionals I have seen post birth all agree that it wasn't the forceps which caused my issues, it was the fact DS was in a bad position in the birth canal for almost 4 hours, compressing my nerves, ripping my pelvic muscles from the bone and damaging the vaginal walls.

And that was despite me birthing actively, not on my back, bouncing on my ball, walking around and doing everything "right".

So yes, it IS childbirth that's the problem.

It's a risk.

That's what it is.

4/10 have assocaited mental health problems I think?
That's a pretty big risk.

What is teh % injured with consequences in medium to long term / forever? I don't know. I suspect not a small number.

Risk of death - sure internet can supply.

You are assumign that women dont' know what "risk" means and are rubbish at assessing risks and so should not talk about these things.

That's patronising.

I had my first child 11 years ago and had ante-natal depression & anxiety, I am a lot better now but I will NEVER be the same again. My brain now heads off in ways it didn't ever used to, in certain situations.

The mental health risk is heavily underpayed IMO. PND is usually presented as something that kind of just gets better in max a year or so, with or without help, when in fact, I'm not sure that's true at all. Not in my experience it isn't.

Risk, you see. Risks we should be allowed to talk about.

So all those women with birth injuries, prolapsed organs, incontinence, birth trauma... just be quiet and shut up because you deserve it all because of the sins of Eve or some shit like that.

That'll do wonders to improve maternity services and shitty issues of consent in labour won't it?

Anyone would think there was an agenda in operation here or something.

DD1's birth was utterly fucking awful - I still have flashbacks now 6 1/2 years later, I was disgracefully treated by the staff, there were massive issues regarding consent that I could have persued if I'd been mentally strong enough to and it was pretty life-shattering to be honest (I love DD1 to bits though). DD2 was totally unplanned, and I had ante-natal depression through the entire pregnancy at the thought of having to be treated like that again - I love her to bits too though.

It's only by telling the negative birth stories that the stigma behind feeling like you've "failed" at childbirth because you had to have a c section, or the forceps came out or, like mine, the mother in law rocked up with a cup of tea to watch the show in the delivery room and had to be asked to leave and then social services were called because you were a "resistant patient" (I'd asked them to note how far I could open my legs without SPD pain before doing a spinal block to go forceps fishing - didn't want permanent pain and damage... they ignored this and I'm left pretty much taking painkillers round the clock when it flares up). I also make a point of telling DD2's sub-15 minute just about got my trousers off in time labour story as well to balance things out, and I deliberately couch things much more comedically than the awful trauma aspect with pregnant women and emphasise DD2's birth... but still - don't ever fucking dare devalue or negate what women have gone through and the pain that they're still living with because it's going to upset a few snowflakes who complain when OBEM dares to show a complicated delivery.

I think the fear of childbirth actually comes more from the doctors now being too terrified of things going wrong that intervention is preventing women labouring properly.

The ignorance behind childbirth is massive, if I hadn’t joined mumsnet when pregnant with my first I wouldn’t have known inductions are more painful nor would my breastfeeding be so successful or picking up dairy intolerances at 6 weeks old.

Women need to know births can cause incontinence, tears, scarring. You can break your tailbone, anything can go wrong.
Do the NHS warn people properly? No.
Why are they trying to scaremonger women against these type of resources when this information is NEEDED?

The panellist who had this topic kept saying about graphic images of birth being posted on MN. Now I don't venture over to those boards at all but I'm pretty sure no-one is posting images? Stories yes, images no.

Anyone who doesn't think labour hurts is a fucking idiot anyway!!

People always talk shit about MN.

crunchymum I am a regular on childbirth stories threads and have never seen images posted. Who is peddling these lies? I am also livid at the story on the front page of The Times blaming Mumsnet for people developing phobias and having the cheek for ask for a section

I agree with pp that fear of childbirth is natural and rational. If you have the facts you can go into it being conscious of the risks. If you are ignorant of the risks or have bought the NCT "normal" birth ideas chances are you'll be in for a shock. Which position do the Mumsnet haters support? Which one is best for women and their babies?

Mumsnet is absolutely brilliant for perinatal support. The information I have found on here has literally saved my life.

This is just another version of "women, shut up, you don't know what's best for you", isn't it? I say keep talking

www.bbc.co.uk/radio/play/p06jbfj8
2 hours 10 minutes in the midwife/researcher gets her point accross without the spin of the media.

I am so grateful I am in this day of age where any question I have is at my finger tips, literally :)
Any information I wanted to know about pregnancy, birth, postpartum and child care is here, if you want. If you don't want to see it don't search for it. The truth of it all is that it is no walk in the park. Honesty is so important with this subject and women need to unite so we don't feel alone. It has greatly helped me to read other women's stories (thank you all)!