Robbie and Ayda Anyone else uncomfortable with surrogacy in these circumstances?

[Charlottesspider0]

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metro.co.uk/2018/09/07/robbie-williams-and-ayda-field-announce-theyve-welcomed-a-daughter-by-surrogate-7922256/amp/

I don’t fully agree with surrogacy for many reasons. Impact on newborn being removed from the ‘carrier’, impact on potential surrogates health. Also, the fact that unless the surrogate is altruistic, even in the uk where there are restrictions on financial payments for surrogacy, it almost will still always involve a financially Richer person compensating a poorer woman.

However in the case of couples who can’t conceive themselves or via ivf, and same sex couples, I can see what leads people to seek surrogates.

However this article makes reference to the use of a surrogate because their work schedules are too busy.
They also have two healthy children.
I find it difficult to accept that they are willing use Another woman’s body to take the risks of childbirth, paticularly in their given circumstances.

I think you want a baby, before your 40th birthday as the article makes reference to, then do it yourself, take the risks yourself and sort out your own work schedule to suit. It’s not like they don’t have the money in the bank to do that.

And if after two healthy children, a third pregnancy doesn’t happen for you, be happy with what you have.

Robbies famous comment likening watching his wife give birth to his first child, to his favourite pub burning down, to me just makes renting another woman’s body even more distasteful.

Just to add it's not specific to PND- I feel the same about IPs using a surrogate with a history of any pregnancy related health issues.

Fair enough

Ultimately people have their views. What i find interesting tho is how we all seem to be fighting for women's rights, yet it ultimately appears to actually be restricting a woman's choice she can & cannot do. Almost like we have gone from a culture where women did what men told them to do, to one where now other women are dictating based on what they personally would or wouldn't do. Whatever happened to choice?

Ffs. 'Choice ON what she can & cannot do*

Fat fingers.

I agree, OP.

I don't understand how people can be pro-choice about ending a pregnancy but think that consenting women should not be allowed to make their own choice about carrying a pregnancy.

Meredith501 because apparently us women can't make decisions that don't ultimately involve money. According to some anyway. I mean, nobody chooses to get pregnant as a surrogate for anything other than money...

Terminations are to aid women’s health.
I don’t see how acting as a surrogate helps the surrogates health.
Terminations In the uk and other developed countries are very very safe and most women will have no long lasting impact on their health.
I only wish the same could be said for the safety record of childbirth.

I also couldn’t see terminations happening on a large scale where the woman terminating was receiving possibly very high organised payments.

So whilst surrogacy and termination of pregnancy both have ethical issues, I don’t think agreeing with one means you can’t disagree with the other.
That, is not comparing apples with apples.

I used the example of termination of pregnancy earlier because they do have in common the fact people hold different points of view about the issues. And whilst someone’s view may be totally different to mine, I wouldn’t label it vile.

I maintain the only thing I find vile is Robbie Williams comment about childbirth and the pub burning down

And on a serious note yes there will be extreme examples of surrogacy where a women has been exploited and these cases are vile.
Whilst I’m uncomfortable with many aspects of surrogacy, I wouldn’t label anyone else’s point of view vile.

IMO surrogacy is an amazing gift to a give or receive. I also think it should be better regulated so that the laws are updated and all involved have the highest level of support, care, information and friendships. There's a world of difference between the reputable and experienced organisations such as Surrogacy UK and some of the other organisations. They check the suitability of surrogate and intended parents, ensuring they're going into it for genuine reasons, CRB checked, health screened, aware of the process etc. The surrogate will usually have completed her own family and the intended parents in genuine need of a surrogate. There will be a period of all parties getting to know each other very well as friends before a detailed agreement is made. The surrogate bonds with the couple she is helping, rather than their baby, and the couple make sure she has everything she needs. It is as far from cold-hearted as I can imagine.

"Terminations are to aid women’s health."

All terminations are not for medical/health reasons.

I understand the concern about payment to surrogates making it attractive to women in difficult financial circumstances but surrogacy is a choice; there are other options available to people in debt.

One could have a similar concern about women feeling forced into an abortion of a much wanted baby because of finances? Or a woman forced into an abortion by an abusive partner? Or because it might affect her career? Or any other reason that means she has an abortion she doesn't want?

We don't ban abortions though because we trust women to make the right choice for themselves. I think we should allow women to make their own choice on surrogacy too.

"Terminations are to aid women’s health."

All terminations are not for medical/health reasons

But what’s better for a woman’s health: undergoing pregnancy and childbirth, or not undergoing pregnancy and childbirth?

That’s why terminations aid women’s health. We’re not talking about the reason behind a termination.

Commercial surrogacy is no more ethical than organ selling.

I have to disagree with you there - you can literally rent a woman and her fertility in the US, which makes women catastrophically more vulnerable (poor) than women in U.K. where you can't pay them anything more than a few hundred quid expenses. And I don't know about the US but the birthing mother in U.K. has automatic parental rights - so at least here the sanctity of giving birth is recognised.

I don't disagree that there are many aspects that are deeply objectionable

However there's a significant amount of support that's provided via the US system that isn't permitted within the UK framework

So for example. A surrogate in the US will receive full psychological vetting and counselling, along with her family. Ongoing counselling support for the surro throughout and after the pregnancy is often mandatory. The IPs will be similarly vetted. The surrogate cannot be left out of pocket as a result of expenses incurred, because surrogacy agreements are legally binding

Under the UK system, as agencies can't really legally play any meaningful role in the arrangement, most arrangements happen independently. So no mandatory counselling, no vetting, no psychological evaluation - for either surrogates or IPs. UK clinics will usually require implications counselling for all parties, and for cases to be approved by the ethics committee, but many many IVF cycles are with clinics abroad because the treatment is so much more affordable (even including travel). They don't have the same requirements. Traditional surrogacy arrangements don't involve a clinic so no third party may be involved at any point

In the UK because surrogacy arrangements have no legal standing, the surrogate has no legal protection again unscrupulous IPs not paying expenses. Most surros I have spoken to feel that the UK system around parental orders does NOT protect them - most I have spoken to have advocated for pre birth parental orders to be available for those surrogates who want them. Under the current system, if one of the IPs died, or if hypothetically they split up or changed their mind, the surrogate is then legally left with the baby.

I am NOT saying that commercial surrogacy in the US isn't often highly questionable and open to massive exploitation. I'm talking about where there are some benefits from greater regulation. Every surro and IP I've spoken to has been in favour of greater regulation in the UK, but against a commercial US style system.

@Pissedoffdotcom can I'm sure offer a more informed POV, as always!

Sorry bold fail

Responding to a PP:

I have to disagree with you there - you can literally rent a woman and her fertility in the US, which makes women catastrophically more vulnerable (poor) than women in U.K. where you can't pay them anything more than a few hundred quid expenses. And I don't know about the US but the birthing mother in U.K. has automatic parental rights - so at least here the sanctity of giving birth is recognised.

Every day on this site there’s a new thread highlighting the extreme difference between those who suffer from infertility and those who don’t.

Said it before & I’ll say it again. To those against surrogacy....you don’t know the full facts. So assuming

I wouldn’t be happy about one of my close relatives doing this at all. I think most women if it was their daughter or neice or sister taking the risk, would feel just the same as me.

My friend spoke to all her family first before offering to help us, they were all amazingly supportive.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't know how we will proceed, because of all the ethical, physical and emotional implications

I'm also acutely aware of how many on this thread would accuse me of being exploitative and treating a woman as a vessel, if we were to take my friend up on her incredible offer

Turn the question around for a moment. What about if it was your daughter, sister or niece who was devastated to find she was infertile, and surrogacy was their only option? Maybe they were born with ovaries but no womb, or managed to freeze embryos before successful cancer treatment which would leave them infertile, or had a heart condition meaning they couldn't safely go through pregnancy themselves? What about your gay son, brother or nephew who had joined a surrogacy organisation with his partner?

Holtet

I would hope that, if it were my child, male or female, that I had raised them well enough to not view women’s fertility as a commodity to be bought.

I don't understand why surrogacy is seen as such an awful thing!! I think it's wonderful!
A surrogate (and the parents to be) go through so many tests, psychological and physical, hormone treatments and analysis to see if they are suitable/well enough both physically and mentally to be able to handle the process.
"Normal" parents are not!! That is so much more dangerous as women on a day-to-day basis are not assessed to see if they are capable of carrying a child, if they are healthy enough to be pregnant and endure the 9 months.
Surrogacy is one of the safest forms of pregnancy and I think it's such a brilliant way to help a family - celebrity or not!!!

sleepless

Pregnancy is still pregnancy - unpredictable and always potentially dangerous. Regardless of how much money has changed hands.

For me, surrogacy is the step across the line from helping couples with fertility issues as ivf does into turning fertility into a commodity. Womb transplants will be the next step on from surrogacy, or the poor people’s option instead of, very soon.

@SemperIdem so if my friend wants to help us by offering to be a surrogate to help us have a much wanted child, she's a commodity that we're buying (despite the fact she'd be receiving no payment)?

Womb transplants will be the next step on from surrogacy,

So women with MRKH who were born without a womb shouldn't be able to take part in medical trials for womb transplantation?

How about the baby who was born to a woman who received a womb transplant, I believe she had MRKH

I assume you oppose kidney transplants for those with kidney disease as well?

I'm also very glad that so many of you haven't had to suffer infertility

I'm writing a book about the emotional experience of infertility and pregnancy loss, and have created an anonymous questionnaire for people to share their stories

There are women who've had breakdowns as a result of not being able to have a child

Many many with depression

Some have considered suicide and have self harmed

I have certainly found the pain of infertility to have utterly destroyed me. Lots of therapy hasn't really helped me to come to terms with not being able to have a child. I've found anti depressants helpful to some degree.

When I had a cancer scare, whilst DH was terrified, I was thinking 'well, if it's cancer then it wouldn't matter that much if I did die, because it's not like I have a child '

I wouldn't wish infertility on my worst enemy. I'm glad for those of you who've been blessed with your own DC that you don't have to live with involuntary childlessness.

banana

Yes - I believe so.

What about the baby? The baby exists and is very loved, I’m sure. I don’t agree with womb transplants and would never want my own used in such a way

People who require kidney transplants already exist, have a life, so no I do not oppose those. Or any other kind of vital organ donation.

I am sorry that you have have had the experience you have had regarding infertility, I wish you all the best in coming to terms with it and/or pursuing having a child. My views are just that, mine. Those views don’t mean I would treat a child born via surrogacy any differently. I wouldn’t.

I don’t agree with womb transplants and would never want my own used in such a way

Then you don't have to donate yours

If someone has opted to donate their kidneys, liver, heart and lungs - that's OK. But they shouldn't be allowed to donate a womb if they so wish?

The post menopausal mother who donated her womb to her daughter - if she'd undergone a hysterectomy and the womb had been disposed of as clinical waste, that's OK, but not if the organ was transplanted into her daughter?

You're perfectly entitled to your opinions and I'm not trying to persuade you otherwise! I'm just trying to understand the logic.

I find surrogacy deeply uncomfortable for many of the reasons outlined above.

I'm infertile.