Following Kirstie Allsopp's post, a guest blog by Belinda Phipps, CEO of the NCT

[KateMumsnet]

A couple of weeks ago, Mumsnet Blogger Kirstie Allsopp wrote a blog post in which she argued that the National Childbirth Trust is over-focused on natural birth, and that women who don't have one can feel underprepared, and even stigmatized. Her post sparked a lot of debate - have a look at the Talk thread for more background.

This week, NCT Chair Belinda Phipps has written us a guest blog in which she tackles some of Kirstie's points, and sets out how the organisation is changing to respond to the needs of all mothers.

What do you think? Let us know if you post on this subject - or let us have your thoughts here on the thread.

Yes, Polka formula is used by most mothers in the UK - eventually. Just as most of the learner dancers in my ballroom course go on to do do other forms of dancing - eventually.

The majority of women who plan to breastfeed are not using formula in the early weeks of their baby's life - you'd be demonstrating, in a large group, important practical skills upon which their baby's health depends, weeks and most likely months before they need them.

It is far safer for someone using formula for the first time to read the instructions on the tin - don't expect someone (possibly in a crisis, as has been suggested, at 3 am) to remember accurately information they were told months beforehand. (I suppose there my dancing analogy falls down (ha!) because it's not actually a risk to my health if I learn ceilidh steps months in advance :) )

The class is badged clearly as 'breastfeeding session'. No need for anyone to be disappointed, or livid, or outraged, or even surprised, that there is not a great deal of info on formula feeding in it.

All breastfeeding counsellors can offer support and information on formula feeding to individuals, just not in a group setting. If they don't have the exact information (for instance, health/medical related queries about specialist formula; consumer related queries about the best-value bottle) they know where to signpost the mother to get the answers. You talk as if only NCT could possibly supply formula information - and without formula details in the breastfeeding session, parents are left adrift and unable to find other sources.

"what whale music to choose" Celine

• hmm, my music - Chinese flutes by the Guo Brothers - was very important to me during the water birth of my DD

But I agree they need to cover all possibilities.

And/or admit they favour things being as natural as possible.

As I've said personally I think that's fine, but in trying to be more inclusive - at least in their language and stated aims - I think there's a danger they're not being honest.

I think parents want and presume they'll be getting "feeding" information.Info on a tin however comprehensive doesn't provide the additional crucial information (which I listed before )which parents are left to learn by word of mouth.

As I said Kirsty had it spot on-NCT needs to own it,admit they will not be providing the information/ support most mothers want and will instead focus on an ideal rosey picture the majority of which mothers never actually have and move on.

But of course you've never attended a class Polka. Nor do you seem to think much of any of the other stuff that has been listed - local support and helplines.

If it's not for you then fine. But there are many, many happy people who have had positive experiences with NCT.

Horses for courses and all that.

Polka you are complaining you we're told what the classes would entail and you didn't like it, so didn't do it.

You are also complaining parents aren't told what courses entail.

Which is it? Or are you just hopping on a bandwagon?

"I think parents want and presume they'll be getting "feeding" information."

Why would they think that, when the session is clearly badged as 'breastfeeding' and the tutor for that session is a 'breastfeeding counsellor'???

"Info on a tin however comprehensive doesn't provide the additional crucial information"

No - and add to that the many individual, specific and health-related pieces of info they might need....and together with a demo/explanation months before it might ever be needed, just cannot be supplied safely or effectively in a group setting.

" which parents are left to learn by word of mouth" - so there are no midwives, health visitors, formula helplines, websites, books, factsheets, they can ask? It's only NCT antenatal courses that can supply this information? NCT breastfeeding counsellors also - as has been explained - can and do answer 1000s of formula related queries a year, individually. Heavens, I post about formula here myself, often.

Celine and there are clearly many who didn't.

NCT states it will answer all questions,clearly they don't,they didn't for my sister.

"Whether you bf or bottle feed we are hear to support you"- what ignore fathers who ask for info and send the couple to a hotline?

Polka, I don't know what your sister's question was but I have had sessions where I did not deal with questions in the class for some reason or other - I was not there when your sister posed the question (whatever it was) and nor were you, so we are both speculating. If someone asks 'how do I make up a bottle of powdered formula?' I would not be so rude as to 'point blank refuse to answer' or however you/your sister put it, but I would very briefly explain where to get that information and then move on, perhaps explaining why I was not going to dwell on it.

What's wrong with asking someone - mother or father - to phone a helpline? If the question cannot be answered, for whatever reason, in the session, then suggesting where to get an individual response is perfectly fine.

No one can promise to answer everybody's questions fully in a session of 2-3 hours - but we can deal with them in other ways.

I often get asked, in the bf session, to cover specific questions about expressing and going back to work - everyone's situation is individual (distance from work; hours worked away from home; age of baby when this is to happen....etc etc etc) and it would be impossible to discuss each one fully, and boring for everyone whose situation was not the same. I invite them to call the helpline (or me) and get an individual response - you cannot object to that, can you?

Bowing out now.

It's fruitless.

"I think parents want and presume they'll be getting "feeding" information" Polka
"Why would they think that ?" tiktok

Well, tiktok, (and I'm strongly in favour of BFing) I guess that'd be because we're about to have a baby that will need some form of nutrition to survive ?

I would think they could go over the basics of making up a bottle as part of an "all bases covered" approach, as well as expressing, mixed feeding, co-sleeping, and anything else that might be relevant. (I was quite confident eg about making bottles if needed though, as had already cared for other babies before having my own)

I actually think it would be helpful generally to have more on care of your new baby and not just on birth, though there's a lot to cover already I know !
But might focus the mind that whatever else happens hopefully everyone will soon have a baby - I found that hard to remember through pregnancy and birth !!

Suggesting a helpline isn't providing support.

Maybe the NCT need to rearrange their course schedules or make them longer providing time for the other questions customers want to ask and expect to be answered after paying £300.

Perhaps they could include a short safe bottle feeding course at a separate time.

Helpline calls are about 20-30 mins of individual support and attention from a trained practitioner - service available 16 hours a day, every day of the year.

Surveys show over 95 per cent of callers to our helplines would recommend the service to others and have very positive things to say about it.

Sounds like pretty good support to me. Can't think why you would think not, Polka.

Clearly 2 of you - Polka and Juggling - don't accept that a group demo of how to make up a formula bottle and other related info months before the info may be required is unsafe/ineffective. Juggling - I explained that people who sign up for a 'breastfeeding session' with a 'breastfeeding counsellor' should not be surprised that the session focuses mainly on 'breastfeeding' and that's why I wondered why someone would be 'livid' when it did.

I wasn't 'livid' when I found the 'ballroom' teacher taught 'ballroom'.

My bil was under the impression all their feeding questions would be answered,as I said perhaps a separate session for bottle feeding would remedy that confusion.C/s were brushed over too.

If teachers can run cookery and food hygiene lessons with 6 year olds pretty sure the NCT could run safe courses on bottle feeding for mums the majority of whom will use bottles at some point.

A helpline isn't support,I'm staggered somebody working for an organisation that supposedly works to support often emotional first time mums would think that is the case.

Face to face,hands on practice,time for a whole host of quesions is what mums want not some stranger at the end of the phone.

You're not understanding the nature of helpline support, or the range of what parents want and how different forms of help can be effective, Polka. But that won't stop you being 'staggered' at my supposed ignorance, I suppose :)

Works unpaid as a volunteer helping out to try to plug the gap with friendship and support. A helpline is definitely support. The clue is the help bit.

I give up. You obviously have a huge chip on your shoulder for which I am very sorry. I think I've expressed my position on this thread and the ill informed comments are irritating but not worth giving up my afternoon.

And of course we do face to face individual support as well....but again, your lack of information about the many ways NCT works doesn't match up to the power of your second-hand experience of a question your brother-in-law felt was ignored.

Better English this time :) : me trying to plug the gaps in your (Polka's) information about the range of help and services from NCT does not match up to the power of your second-hand experience.

Repeated questions re that and c/s.He's normally a very reasonable bloke

Simply don't agree re a helpline being support,it is at odds to the image Belinda Phipps is trying I convey in her op statement.

Ah the old patronising "chip" as a way of belittling to make a point.

Anyhow as you were, clearly Kirsty was completely wrong and nobody has a problem with the NCT-it is perfect.

No, your right tiktok, I don't really accept that a demonstration "months before the info may be required" would be unsafe/ineffective. I think in reality there are other ethos based and practical reasons (time) for not doing so.
After all we're all expecting to learn and remember the info from the breastfeeding demonstration ?
I think making up a bottle in this country ie. with safe water and sterilisers to hand is a relatively straight-forward and simple process. So not rocket science, but could be reassuring for most Mums-to-be to see at some point. As I said I'd already learnt to make bottles as a student nurse whilst caring for other people's babies so not a big issue for me. And I went on to breast-feed my DC's quite happily !

• After attending a very good, straight-forward BFing session by an NCT BFing Counselor - for which I'm very grateful for the good start it gave us (me and DD)

However if I'd not had that demonstration I wonder if DD would have taught me to do it - she took to it so naturally Best advice just to hold baby towards your body !

If you really need face to face, hands on support to make up a bottle of formula with the instructions on the box you probably shouldn't be in charge of an infant.

Sometimes you have to take a bit of personal responsibility and just get on with it.

Nonsense Celine - I hate following instructions on boxes, and much prefer to learn first-hand by seeing someone else do it -
Babies don't come with a manual - following written instructions is not an essential skill in raising a baby

Juggling, the antenatal session on breastfeeding does teach something of the skills of breastfeeding, but much of the preparation lies in 'making the baby real', emphasising the unpredictability of a newborn's needs, discussion of social factors eg night feeds (all of which are also applicable to formula feeding, anyway) together with a brief outline of how breastfeeding works, to enable mothers who want to bf to approach it with more confidence. There is not much risk that a faulty memory about the content of the session would put the baby's life/health at risk. And of course, the bf session takes place (usually) a very few weeks or even days before this is needed.

Contrast this with formula feeding. Actually, it is more complex than most people think. Unless you trained as a student nurse within the past 5-6 years, you will not have learnt how to make up formula powder and store bottles according to current safety guidance, either :) . As I said, the first few times of making up a bottle, parents really need to read the tin and not think they already know what to do, 'cos of a session months before or a student nurse experience years before.

Oh, yes, Celine, that's an appropriate analogy

There is more involved in making up healthy formula than just reading the instructions. I was one of the only mums on the ward to use formula and even though the hospital itself had been part of the decision for me to ff rather than bf, I got no support and was barely shown the room with the fridge, let alone talked through what temperatures might be appropriate to serve formula at, or how long to store a made-up bottle or an open carton, or the best way to sterilise a bottle. Things that can seem pretty daunting when you have a tiny little newborn to care for and you only gave birth 48 hours ago and are still an absolute mess.

I'd have appreciated being able to have a chat about it during the NCT courses (though it seems my tutor was sticking to the bf-only line more closely than others).

Not all mums start ff when their baby is a month or two old.

FFS, that's kind of like saying all there is to bf is sticking a nipple in a baby's mouth...

Ah I knew some of you wouldn't read the disclaimer

RL beckons. Have fun