Following Kirstie Allsopp's post, a guest blog by Belinda Phipps, CEO of the NCT

[KateMumsnet]

A couple of weeks ago, Mumsnet Blogger Kirstie Allsopp wrote a blog post in which she argued that the National Childbirth Trust is over-focused on natural birth, and that women who don't have one can feel underprepared, and even stigmatized. Her post sparked a lot of debate - have a look at the Talk thread for more background.

This week, NCT Chair Belinda Phipps has written us a guest blog in which she tackles some of Kirstie's points, and sets out how the organisation is changing to respond to the needs of all mothers.

What do you think? Let us know if you post on this subject - or let us have your thoughts here on the thread.

Re: cotton wool and water - all my newborns got terrible nappy rash from wipes.
I have always done this when they are tiny, it's standard advice.

Taffeta, that's horrible first night, and I think a lot of us remember bad, very tearful moments/hours with a newborn that you have not a clue how to cope with :( :(

But honestly, it's not normally an antenatal course's job to do a comprehensive consumer round-up of products, clothes and equipment - NCT courses do cover some of this, but I would be surprised if many included comparative details of different vests and toiletries (though it might come up in a discussion). You can't blame NCT because for some reason the midwives were either unaware or unbothered by your struggles with poo (which does have a tendency to go everywhere...and if you are feeling underconfident anyway, the whole business of dressing/undressing/cleaning up with a squawky screamer is overwhelming, no argument with you there). Good maternity care includes hands-on support and confidence-building in those moments.

(What's a vest that is put on 'down over their body instead of over their head'?)

I think we should probably divide the services the NCT offer into two - the classes that they charge (lots) for - and for which we ought to expect a reasonable standard of advice and instruction (not the varying quality that MNers report and which appears to be directed by the whims of the teacher) and the volunteer services that they offer to new mums - coffee mornings, breastfeeding support, nearly new sales. Whatever we might think of the individuals involved, it's not fair to criticise people who are freely giving up their time to help others.

I think it's possible to criticise the quality of the teaching provision without damning all the volunteers. And possible to defend the voluntary services without barring criticism of the teaching.

For a lot of people, experience of NCT is either one or the other (the teaching or the support services) and our views will be influenced by that.

Tiktok , am not blaming NCT for that awful first night. I have never been involved with NCT in any way. what am I doing on this thread?

Just making suggestions for what I would have found useful as information pre birth.

The normal vests you buy for babies that go under their baby grows. With an envelope neck. They have that kind of neck so they can roll down over the body instead of you smearing the poo over their head. Which I found out after both of mine 5 yo. NB I don't blame NCT for this either, am again just commenting on things that would be useful to know.

I did NCT classes and met some great friends ( the biggest benefit of doing these classes I would say!). I kept up my membership but I am now reconsidering as I spotted posts from Belinda Phipps re breastfeeding and baby led weaning on the Cow and Gate facebook page.... These pages do suffer from trolling from very Pro Breastfeeding and BLW activists and while her posts were not as bad as some, I'm not sure this is professional behaviour from a CEO......?

Taffeta, I get you about the vests :) They still have to go on over the head somehow and it was this that confuddled me.

You talked about the minutiae that NCT (also NHS) 'should tell mothers about' antenatally. That's why I, understandably, took it that you were laying at least part of the blame for your horrible night at their door....now I see you have had no experience of NCT, so this explains some of misunderstanding.

Yes, no experience personally of NCT, although have plenty of friends who attended their ante natal classes, which is how I know they don't talk about the minutiae, for whatever reason. And neither do the NHS.

I guess we all just need to buy that new MN book.

Our NCT tutor was brilliant.

It was my second baby - that wasn't a problem, she asked my opinion on a lot of things.

We didn't pay £300. We paid £30.

We discussed all forms of pain relief. Information was practical. We also did the CS role-play. Active birth was discussed. Breastfeeding was discussed. Bottle feeding was discussed. Our tutors own experience of birth was discussed.

We gave feedback at the end of the course, and then anonymously online.

Meet-ups continue weekly, even nine months later - Sometimes just mums, sometimes just dads, sometimes all of us. These people have become my friends.

I think I probably had the experience everybody would want to have having joined the NCT, it makes me sad that not everyone is getting it!!

What is the response rate to the requests for feedback?
At what stage is it collected? (At the end of the course pre-birth?, A couple of weeks after birth? A bit later when people's heads are straighter and have had time to reflect?)

natural birth this just a label really and Kirsty should be less worried about this - each birth experience is individual. Insisting on birth at home when there are medical risks is selfish but women need to be assured that they can have a comfortable birth in hospital as well.

breastfeeding fascism is patronising and like attachment parenting has become some kind of new normal, pushing everything outside as abnormal. Many babies can't breastfeed due to poor suck but appear to be and it can be very damaging for them when their mothers are made to feel a failure, continuing to try, and baby isn't getting the nutrients.

middle class only this is wrong and should lose them some serious funding. I remember going to a coffee morning on a council estate held by a non-middle class parent - there wasn't a good turnout. This is a reflection of our awful class-ridden society and adjustments by organisations such as NCT must be made to encourage social inclusion. However the benefits to families generally, brought about by the social aspect of NCT is indisputable and invaluable.

I did an NCT antenatal course about 18 months ago. Our tutor was very pragmatic and encouraged us to approach birth with an open mind (her realism might have been connected to the fact she had four children ).
There were only two things I would remotely fault her for. Firstly, I was sad she didn't take the opportunity to very gently intervene when one of the women said she would feel a "failure" if she had a CS. Secondly, the breastfeeding section wasn't remotely entirely realistic. We were shown innumerable pictures of happy smiley women BFing while picnicing/boating/abseiling down cliffs and not one of some poor sleep-deprived sod trying to achieve the perfect bloody latch at 3am. I vaguely remember hating some of the literature we were given though. Its ages since I read it but I seem to recall a heavy homebirth /co-sleeping blah blah agenda. And the course intake was very white middle class. Also I'm wary of the NCT assuming that members are lined up behind every aspect of its agenda. I rejoined recently as a way to meet other parents having moved house, but I'm not a huge fan of the wider agenda (my approach to birth could be summed up as "gimme drugs").

A couple of first posters here have said it all really for me, Bridget and itonly, you are right.

Wow, nothing on here seems to chime with my recent experience of the NCT, which frankly could not have been more positive. DH and I finished classes a couple of weeks ago and both found them extremely helpful. No bias, there were several couples aware they were either definitely headed for CS or it was a strong possibility, and the tutor's attitude was very positive and supportive.

I don't think there was a judgemental approach about anything - even when the topic of dummies came up, which I was expecting would raise NCT eyebrows.

The only thing that one of the tutors got evangelical about was pelvic floor exercises

I've read comments about NCT on mumsnet where posters describe NCT teachers and breastfeeding counsellors saying things that are breathtakingly cruel, judgemental or just factually inaccurate, and I find myself worrying about how comments I've made in class will be remembered and interpreted, weeks or sometimes even months after the course has ended. I've already pointed out further back, that feedback from different people attending the same course can be very conflicting, and that people sometimes say things at reunions to show that they have very poor recall of what was covered in class. Every teacher will tell you that she experiences this happening regularly.

I wonder if my discussion of the side effects of epidural will be remembered, but my comments about wonderful epidural births and the importance of women being listened to in labour and given the pain relief they need will be forgotten. And the class will be remembered as being 'very anti epidural'. I worry that when I talk about the benefits of birth outside of an obstetric led unit, what some people will hear is me 'pushing' home birth. I get feedback forms from the same class where 6 will comment about how 'balanced' and 'realistic' the class was, and 2 people will say that the information frightened them and eroded their confidence. It's made me feel very guarded and paranoid about my teaching - even made me want to give up my work. I think it's very hard for NCT teachers to know how to position themselves, given that the 'status quo' for first time mums in the UK is births involving a lot of intervention taking place largely in hospital settings.

Would want to add, that as part of my training (and work external to the NCT) I've observed a good number of NHS classes, which as far as I can see teach to pretty much the same normal birth agenda (in the sense that while interventions and pain relief are covered the focus is mainly on the normal process of labour and there is a reasonable amount of discussion of self-help strategies). Midwives seem to get away with saying things that NCT teachers would be pilloried for on mumsnet. I had a very experienced midwife attend one of my classes as a birth companion to her daughter in law. She told me at the beginning of the session that she'd try not to say too much, but eventually couldn't stop herself talking about orgasmic birth - that she'd witnessed these in her work and how amazing it was. And I thought, if I ever mentioned this in NCT classes even in passing, I'd worry that it would end up being reported as 'the NCT teacher banging on about people having orgasms in labour' and being 'completely unrealistic'.

Personal experience of the NCT is nothing but positive.

Excellent teaching, offering facts - none of this telling you what you should and shouldn't do. Everything was covered including caesarians, FF, all types of pain relief. Dad's all attended and got involved.

As well as meeting up with my antenatal group, I subsequently joined the local branch and met lovely, ordinary mums - no airs and graces, just normal people. I have also been a long time member of various NCT online chat forums.

Later, I also joined the local committee and finally the regional committee. Never did I come across most of the bad experiences note up thread.

I have been a member of two different branches in different counties. Size wise they were very different, but both welcoming and inclusive.

I will say however, that my sister's experience is not so positive. On my recommendation, she signed up for classes, but their teacher didn't cover so much in the way of facts, but was more about 'feelings'. The dads quickly all stopped attending and my sister considers it a waste of money.

This is where I agree with a comment way up thread. I do think there needs to be more control over what teachers are teaching. And yes, I appreciate not everyone wants the same thing from a class, but if it is going to concentrate on anything other than facts then I think this needs to be made clear to those paying out a fortune for classes.

" We have tried but just get complaints about the suitability of the venues, or nobody turns up.
HO make things difficult for volunteers, there is a lot of red tape as someone said upthread. Many committee roles have to be filled by members, so many of us actually have to pay to give up our time. That one really pisses me off!"
BLUEHAT- I couldn't agree more on both these points :) You put it much better than I could

Me and my husband really enjoyed the NCT classes. Our tutor asked what we wanted to cover and tailored the class accordingly. She had had one CS, one hospital birth and one home birth, so could describe all three accurately and non-judgementally. There was lots of role play, and we learned in a way much more likely to stick. The outcomes for our group were pretty mixed, I think there were two c-sections and one (planned) home birth. Six of the eight breast-fed successfully.

While not BFF with any of the women from the group, we still meet up a couple of times a year, but when we were on maternity leave it was weekly at least and a life saver in the early days. We shared information on local activities, and went along to a variety of classes.

The NHS classes were useless - we were lectured at by a bored midwife with an extremely strong Spanish accent. She did collect emails but they were never sent on, so we never saw any of the couples again.

I was pushed towards them by midwife. I refused, as I was adamant that their beliefs and way of thinking were not for me.She didn't push it....and sort of agreed with me.

My understanding was that unless you were prepare to have a natural birth, and failed then you would be made to feel guilty. Ditto breast feeding

I tried to go to an NCT coffee morning, but it turned out you had to own a car. Their meetings weren't accessible to anyone using public transport as they all lived in big houses in the suburbs.

Sorry, Jean, not getting your point. Should volunteers only be allowed to open their house to other people if they live on a bus route? Kind offers of hosting from elsewhere declined?

When I didn't have a car, I went to get-togethers with people who did - there was an informal lift-sharing thing. Probably some branches are better than others at getting that sort of thing done, of course.

When it comes to coffee mornings you sometimes have to put in to get something out. A friend of mine has just started hosting. She lives in a v v small house. Less than 900 square foot small. Of the 6 people who said they were coming only one turned up and none of the others even sent a one line apology. She's not giving up because she's bloody minded but I know loads of people would say, why bother? She did say it felt more like being on a speed date than a friendly chat!

She does live on about 8 bus routes and near a mainline station and tube

My DH and I signed up for an NCT course after a recommendation from a colleague. I did it because we wanted to make new friends and meet new people but also because the NHS classes were not convenient for me. I found the classes to be informative and very helpful. But more than that, I found the network of friends I made brilliant in the first few months when we were on maternity leave. I ended up with EMCS - the only one in my group- and thank goodness it was covered in the class because it would have been even more overwhelming than it already was. I would do it again in a flash though. The information was invaluable and I got to meet a great bunch of people I now call my friends.

My NCT teacher went through an entire C-Section scenario with us parents-to-be playing the roles of different hospital staff. I don't think those that had sections would have felt a failure after that. It was very focused on breastfeeding, but then so was my NHS course.

Hi, also just wanted to say that I had a pretty positive experience with NCT too. There were obviously some things in the classes that didn't necessarily help but no more so than some of the stuff I was told by health visitors / midwives after the birth. It would be really interesting to hear some dads' points of views though because I think one of the big plus points from the course is that my DH got to understand and hear about things that he wouldn't have known (and probably wouldn't have read about of his own accord) so that when I was taken into theatre for an episiotomoy, ventouse and forceps, he was prepared for the fact that there would be (what felt like) 100s of people in there too! We did get asked for feedback as well and our course definitely didn't cost £300. Agree with another post saying that you need to differentiate between courses which are paid for (and therefore teachers who are paid) and events manned by volunteers too. There is a huge difference between the two in the context of this argument!

Our antenatal course (in SE London) cost £300 - I believe that fees vary by area. I wouldn't recommend NCT as I don't consider the views/information presented to be either balanced or useful to impressionable parents-to-be. When I called up to cancel my membership, I gave feedback about this lack of balance and felt distinctly fobbed off by the guy on the phone.