Following Kirstie Allsopp's post, a guest blog by Belinda Phipps, CEO of the NCT

[KateMumsnet]

A couple of weeks ago, Mumsnet Blogger Kirstie Allsopp wrote a blog post in which she argued that the National Childbirth Trust is over-focused on natural birth, and that women who don't have one can feel underprepared, and even stigmatized. Her post sparked a lot of debate - have a look at the Talk thread for more background.

This week, NCT Chair Belinda Phipps has written us a guest blog in which she tackles some of Kirstie's points, and sets out how the organisation is changing to respond to the needs of all mothers.

What do you think? Let us know if you post on this subject - or let us have your thoughts here on the thread.

I didn't take advantage of the NCT antenatal classes, I was let down as there wasn't enough interest over the period I was due and didn't want to be going to classes at 5 months pregnant.

However, I went to a Bumps, Babes and Tots group which was brilliant and helped with my breastfeeding issues. I didn't expect to like it, tbh at first it was just the BF support, but then I kept going. DD is now 2 and I'm expecting my second. They've been a great group of relaxed and chilled out people. Everyone is different and we all have different parenting styles, sometimes it's helpful to hear a different opinion as it can help you try something new. I am a full time toddler tamer, so this group having more emphasis on cake/coffee/chat has been a soul saver for me. I make the effort to talk to people looking lost or alone. I love talking about things other than the tiddler, but my taste in books/films/knitting doesn't appeal to many :) but I have the ability to talk about other things too.

I'm going to my first branch meeting Thursday, am thinking about helping out on a local level.

I volunteer for the NCT, and have mixed feelings. In response to projectsrus, branches are different because there is a different number of volunteers in each. Ours has practically nobody at the moment so we are very limited in what we do. We also have no suitable venues in our area to run coffee mornings/bumps n babes. We have tried but just get complaints about the suitability of the venues, or nobody turns up.
HO make things difficult for volunteers, there is a lot of red tape as someone said upthread. Many committee roles have to be filled by members, so many of us actually have to pay to give up our time. That one really pisses me off!

Cliques are everywhere, not just the NCT, and these come and go as different personalities move on.

I don't blame you AngryGnome. Although I would argue they need people like you more to get rid of the ignorant people (or at least dilute them). I joined my branch team years ago because they had the whiff of some of the attitudes mentioned on this thread. They're now a great bunch although admittedly very white, very middle class and very female. That is quite representative of the area though. Except the female bit. I know they're desperate for help too

Re bottle feeding - my DS is 10 weeks old and we went to a weekend NCT class. We meet lovely people and our tutor was nice.

However, we were told nothing about bottle feeding. I am bottle feeding DS but exclusively with expressed breast milk as he had a tongue tue and couldn't latch on. Once it was snipped, we were already in a good expressing routine and have stuck with that.

The NCT seem to totally overlook the fact that you may very well need to sterilise bottles etc not just for formula.

In my experience, both the NCT and the NHS totally overlook this "third way" of feeding and it is more by accident than design and the luck of having a very good supply, that I managed to get in to an expressing routine and work out what I needed to do.

Fabs - I did a course at the end of October 2012. I can assure you that we weren't given feedback forms. Just because they exist do not mean that they are distributed

well done nct,responding as ms allsopp made v valid points,generating good discussion
your brand is broken,you need to regroup,redefine what you do,what's your purpose
set consistency in message and approach the teachers take. like it or not nct is middle class,prosperous with an anti-medical bias

I did NCT classes 2 years ago and was hugely dissappointed. We had x2 2 hour sessions on breastfeeding (excessive is an understatement) and despite the length i found it barely usefully. Most of the time was spent lecturing us on why BF was neccessary important and very little advice on what to if you encounter difficulties - becuase bf is the most natural thing in the world and you will be able to do it. People that say they can't are just giving up - her actual words. Massive pressure to co-sleep, despite it going against NHS guidelines, to the extent that we were made to feel like we'd be bad parents leaving child new borns left to feel alone and unloved, if we didn't.

The labour sessiohn was actually good and our course leader was very open-minded and supportive of peoples choices. A rare thing from NCT i think.

I was also massively disappointed by the extemnt to which the classes facilited socialisation, as they didn't. As i'm pretty sure nonone from my class stayed in touch, because noone had the opportunity to get to know each other.

Fab responded to my query about whether the course leaders were paid - they are apparently.

Which I think makes it even more important that the central office applies some more rigorous standards to what is taught under its banner. There seems to be a really wide range of experience on here about what is taught - which I think is unprofessional and potentially damaging.

I have mixed feelings about NCT too. On the one hand, I didn't get the impression from my course teacher that she was very one sided. We went over all the forms of pain relief, pros and cons, and she was quite pro-epidural in a funny sort of way. Not "go have an epidural" but still positive about the benefit of pain relief being available. Very anti-pethidine though.

I do think the courses vary far too much though. The one I went on included nothing about labour techniques. No positions, no breathing exercises, no massage, none of the things I thought might happen. There was a bit about after you've given birth that was kind of useful, but it wasn't focused on practicalities enough. There didn't seem to be any structure too it and I think had I not been reading other birth stuff I might have struggled to put it all together.

She also disappeared once the course ended. Not one of us got an email back after we gave birth, despite letting her know. There was no reunion class organised. When I eventually emailed her asking about the reunion class, having realised this is meant to be included in your fees, she said "oh let me know when you're next all meeting up and I'll come along". None of us really wanted to see her again after that so we didn't bother.

I did get sent a feedback form, but it was anonymised so I have no idea how they match it up with your teacher. And at the time it was sent I had a 2 week old baby and filled it out in a muddled state of amazement that I was coping. It was only later as I spoke more to the other couples on the course and people who had done different NCT courses that I realised our course content varied so much from others.

And I do think this is a problem. I really think there needs to be more standardised content and delivery in the courses so we don't get so much of the personal views creeping in. And the NCT could really do with commissioning a proper piece of research into their courses rather than relying on feedback forms. From what I have seen I don't think the central bit has a clue what is going on locally.

I don't regret doing NCT and probably would still recommend it to people, depending on what they were looking for. But in hindsight part of me does wish I'd spent my £300 on the hypnobirthing course instead.

I went to nct classes in my local area 15 years ago given by a very nice lady in her house. I do think they give slighly misleading advice, in that they create unrealistic expectations of what to expect. I attended these classes because the nhs ones were fully booked up. I do think they serve a purpose which allows you to acclimatise to the idea of having children, it is generally a social gathering with a social purpose.
However, I attended coffee mornings after the birth and I am best friends with all of the people I met there even now.

The nct doesnt just provide info about births but a network of like minded individuals to mix with afterwards. This can be very important when you have moved away from your home town, away from school friends and family. You have alot of restrictions placed on you after the birth, cant stay out drinking with your work colleagues like you used to, you need new friends that can fit in with your new lifestyle.

We just always seem to have the same conversations again and again about the NCT and after a while I just lose the will to live. I feel that the organisation is so utterly maligned and puts up such a desperately crappy defence. Mothers volunteer to host coffee mornings for strangers- hated. Mothers who volunteer to run a Nearly New Sale on a Saturday morning, so you can buy cheap stuff and frequently buying nothing for their own kids as they are already on DC3- despised. Mothers who volunteer to spend time running breast pumps around to the homes of women who want to breastfeed (this week I heard of an NCT volunteer spend an hour of her evening at the home of a stranger who had a baby in NICU, trying to help her)- gits. Mothers who volunteer to write crummy articles to share their stories about PND to help others- fuck off. Mothers who volunteer to put people in touch with others who are isolated locally so that EIGHT years later they are still going on holiday together- who gives a shit etc. Our blessed Tiktok, who spends days and days of her life helping others who want to bf. The people who answer the Early Days Helpline to try soothe miserable new mothers struggling. The people who go into Holloway Prison to see pregnant inmates, who set up programmes to help refugee pregnant women, who organise toy swaps and picnics and discounts etc. all completely gratis and frequently totally out of pocket.

All hated hated hated.

It's all fucking pointless. Women hate each other so much. I just want to burn the whole organisation down.

Long time ago now but I took one set of NHS classes and one NCT. (Long gap between DC and moved to a new area where I knew few people). NHS class fine, until we were told it was OK if a man would not 'allow' a woman to breast feed because the breasts were 'his'. We were !

NCT classes good for info on labour if no medical internetion required, but I cannot remember any talk about either ff or emcs. I did meet some people with whom I was friends for some time - DC all grown and flown now.

I did have a bad initial experience with the NCT. When I phoned up to book on a course the woman asked about my husband. I explained that I would be having the baby on my own. She then said that the courses were designed for couples and refused to accept me. I had to spell out to her that although I wasn't a couple I was going to have to give birth in the same way as a woman in a couple and therefore needed to go on the course just as they did. She thought for a moment and agreed to let me on the course. Not a great welcome.
I enjoyed the course, but found that when it came to the birth having been on the course was of little practical value - as far as I can remember it very much focused on breathing techniques, imagining being on a mountain, etc, and very much didn't focus on pain relief, the baby needing help coming out, etc, in fact all the things I could have done with being told about before the birth, rather than during it when in great pain etc.

noviews I was right with you until your last paragraph. I do agree the defence is just rubbish. Belinda on Twitter makes me want to die. BUT, it is salvagable.

I for one am extremely grateful to the women who do things for NCT. They deserve more support from UKO and more respect from those who do nothing but complain.

It's easy to mock the NCT and it's army of volunteers. Fashionable even but not always fair or accurate.

intervention

Hmm. My NCT classes were generally okay, fairly balanced and no 'agenda' re: natural/drug free delivery. But the teacher was woefully disorganised and as a result we failed to cover some really key stuff like 3rd stage of labour (not even touched on!). And we spent over 4 hours on breastfeeding (2 hr BF session then another 2 hrs during our final women-only class). At least an hour of this was spent getting us to talk about our feelings about BF. just a waste of time in a group where everyone, mums & partners, had said at the outset they were keen to/supportive of BF. Much of the BF info was very anecdotal from the teacher and it was a lot of wittering on really (this was from the regular teacher, not the BF counsellor who did the special BF session). In the BF session I asked about how to spot problems like mastitis and my question was totally glossed over with 'we'll talk about that later' - except we didn't.

So, like almost everyone on this (and every other NCT thread I've seen), I think that there needs to be better consistency of course content, probably with a syllabus distributed at the beginning of the course so you know what will be covered. It seems like a no-brainer really. And it might go a long way to professionalising the courses and enabling the NCT's other, incredibly valuable, work to get more positive recognition.

I never made it to NCT. I rang the local leader to enquire about classes, to be informed it would cost £320 (HOW much?!) and I had left it too late to join the local group (I was 26 wks). She was quite rude and after a bit of huffing informed me that I could attend another group, about 12 miles away from where I live. I said I couldn't drive and this was not on a bus route so wouldn't be helpful. When she said "can't your husband drive?" I told her I wasn't married and at that point she said "I don't think NCT will suit you dear" and practically hung up on me!

Luckily, after a tearful confession of that call to my darling of a midwife, I was signed up for the NHS classes run at my local clinic by the local midwives, who were fantastic and covered everything about childbirth and the weeks afterwards (and yes, formula feeding was covered). It was great to meet the community team and know that perhaps one of them would be on delivery when we went into labour, or visiting us as home afterwards. We also had a tour of the delivery suite and a session with the "active labour" specialist midwife who gave a great session on positions/massage/movement for active labour and who actually ended up delivering my DD ("nice to see a familiar face" she said, whilst peering up my vagina )

When DD was 5 wks old we were invited back to speak to the class about our experience. Which we were honoured to do, and it was great being on the "other side" of the session, answering questions and talking about our experience.

I can't praise my NHS sessions highly enough, they were so inclusive and welcoming, done with great humour and with real midwives who were working in our area. Drawing on their knowledge and experience was like tapping into a gold seam, I feel very lucky to have had that experience.

NCT seemed like a great club to belong to but I couldn't reach their high ideals (i.e natural childbirth, breast feeding, cotton wool & water). Needless to say I self-selected out early on.

I am happy for women who find support and friendship in the NCT but I also understand the critics: swallowing the NCT orthodoxy certainly made me start motherhood feeling like a failiure.

"As a result, the nct just adds itself to the list of people that say 'you SHOULD breastfeed' but don't actually give any support to do so. "

Eh? Are we talking about the same organisation that specifically does not say 'you should breastfeed' and whose 300 breastfeeding counsellors support something like 20,000 postnatal women a year - voluntarily ? And who train peer supporters so they can support another however many 1000s? And who publish a ton of information which postnatal women read? And who train HCPs so they can support women to breastfeed? And who trains people like me who spend time online supporting women to breastfeed?

Can't possibly be the same organisation...must be a mix up.

"cotton wool and water"???

Bravo tictoc

Another Bravo from me, tiktok. My NCT BFing counsellor is the reason that DS was BF at all. She helped me through his weight loss & formula top ups & EBM top ups with phone calls, emails & clinic visits for weeks while we waited for his tongue tie to be snipped & then helped me get back to EBF.

I assume the cotton wool and water refers to using that instead of baby wipes on a newborn.

9 years on I remember like it was yesterday when DS did his first meconium poo which leaked through the sides of his vest and all up his back. It was at night, no one around, midwives at hospital couldn't have been less willing to help. It took me an hour to change him, him screaming continuously, partly as he had a headache from the ventouse (but I didn't know that at the time just thought I was doing it all wrong.)

Cotton wool and water. If I'd known about wipes. If I'd known that those vests can go down over their body instead of over their head. It's these stupid minutiae that NCT and the NHS should tell new mothers about. Not tell them which to do, its a mothers choice, not theirs, but just tell them what the options are. Not leave them sweating, exhausted and feeling a failure before they are even out of hospital.

I know if I had not had this experience in hospital I wouldn't have been such a nervous parent in the following 6 months.

I never went to NCT classes, but our NHS tutor was an NCT tutor too. She was great, ensured we knew all about the possibility of CS and how many people would be there, and despite the NCT image, if it hadn't been for he I would probably never have had pethidine, but she said there is a time and place for it. I found myself in that time and place ...

The reason I stopped going to the coffee mornings was because of one very loudmouthed cow who kept pushing formula feeding to other mothers (whilst her 3 month old eczma covered screaming tot drank blackcurrant squash). Quite the opposite of the pro breastfeeding slightly hippyish image that I was expecting. Apart from one, the other mums just weren't my type so I didn't go. Looking back I can see that she was trying to force other mums into formula feeding to ease some of her self-imposed guilt but when you're still recovering from baby hormones it's hard to be forgiving or tolerant.