Following Kirstie Allsopp's post, a guest blog by Belinda Phipps, CEO of the NCT

[KateMumsnet]

A couple of weeks ago, Mumsnet Blogger Kirstie Allsopp wrote a blog post in which she argued that the National Childbirth Trust is over-focused on natural birth, and that women who don't have one can feel underprepared, and even stigmatized. Her post sparked a lot of debate - have a look at the Talk thread for more background.

This week, NCT Chair Belinda Phipps has written us a guest blog in which she tackles some of Kirstie's points, and sets out how the organisation is changing to respond to the needs of all mothers.

What do you think? Let us know if you post on this subject - or let us have your thoughts here on the thread.

They're not keen on twin pregnancies.They were very unhelpful when I rang up already knowing I'd need a section saying a lot wouldn't be relevant to me so I never joined.

My sister did join when pg with twins and thry point blank refused to give any info re bottle feeding. Bil was livid as wanted to support my sister knowing full well already having twins in the family that some bottle feeding was highly likely.

Many people chose to bottle feed anyhow and thorough training in safe formula preparation is vital? I don't know how any organisation can justify not fully informing parents in the correct and safe way to bottle feed.In this country the vast maj of babies are bottle fed at some point to ignore that is just plain wrong.

Chiming in to say I also had a positive NCT experience. I live in a cheap price band area so it was affordable for me; it educated me a lot about the birth and I made new friends who have got me through mat leave. Agree with what someone said further up the thread about you needing new friends when you don't really have any in your local area and are used to working full time. I don't live in an affluent area so there's been none of this wealthy mummy stuff going on, although my group is still pretty middle class and professional.

We had an appropriate amount of time devoted to pain relief and c-sections, although the teacher did make it clear that she was very pro-natural birth and talked a lot about the 'cascade of intervention' etc. She seemed disappointed that none of us were going for a home birth! She was very much in favour of co-sleeping and breastfeeding well into the toddler stage.

In the end our class came out with two c-sections (one scheduled, one emergency), one forceps delivery, one water birth with G&A, one normal delivery with G&A (me) and one normal delivery with an epidural. None of us felt 'judged' because of our choices or what happened to us. We all breastfed for at least 6m and at 9m two of us are still doing it so I think we were all a huge support to each other with regards to breastfeeding. We did agree though that the breastfeeding workshop, while useful, didn't prepare us for the fact it is actually pretty tough at first even if you're doing it right.

When we've gone to our local Bumps & Babies group it seems to be about 50/50 with who's bf/ff. We didn't go to the coffee mornings arranged for us because we felt that we were happy meeting up at each others' houses. Plus one of the venues was in a village just outside the city where we live - and two of us don't drive.

It IS concerning though that there seems to be such a breadth of information and attitudes.

Polkadot, it was good that you were told in advance that some of the course might not be as helpful to you as otherwise - and it is wrong to say 'they are not keen on twins' :(

My experience is that antenatal twin mums do find it hard to relate to the postnatal aspects of the course, because everything that's said about caring for the baby has to be doubled, and there is a limited amount of individual attention that can be paid to one couple out of a whole course....we do try, though. I had a twin mum in a recent session and I did include twin-specific information - but it would not meet all her needs, I know.

This is universally recognised in antenatal provision and in many areas, the NHS has multiples-focussed antenatal groups, which draw mothers from a wider area to make it viable, and which is usually not so much a course but a monthly (or thereabouts) education session.

I have already explained the rationale for not covering bottle feeding/formula preparation in a group setting focussed on breastfeeding. I don't understand why anyone would be 'livid' at this not being covered in the breastfeeding session - the NCT course is far from the only potential source of information on bottles and formula, and if there is further need for information from anyone, we can (and do) help individually, we can signpost to other sources, and we support in other ways than the group setting.

The safe way to make up formula is printed on the tin/box. Any other questions can be dealt with on the NCT feeding line. I formula fed one of mine and did call the helpline on the box to ask a specific question regarding quantities because it wasn't completely clear from the box.

NCT won't tell you which formula is "best" or which bottles are "best" because it's all so subjective. The NCT library has got a brilliant article available online to members about the differences in formula milk.

Tamba do great work with multiple birth families. They have recently started a new scheme offering specific support for mothers breastfeeding multiples. Their peer supporters are trained by... NCT.

The helpline I called was the formula one (just to be clear). But that was only because I didn't realise the NCT breastfeeding line could help and actually 4 years ago before the strategy changed they probably wouldn't have been able to but they can now!

Any parent paying £300 should be told the full picture re feeding options not to do do is wrong.

There are plenty of multiple mums,we don't have a contagious disease we're simply pregnant with two babies instead of one.Any group supposedly catering for pregnant women should encompass all pregnancies and I do get the impression twin mums are simply a pain in the arse to NCT as the many of the other twin mums I know felt the same.

It was both a "you won't fit in"impression I got along with a "we're letting you know we're not going to bother catering for your pregnancy"- either way a pretty shite attitude.

Anyhooo I went to a fab NHS group which I highly recommend to anybody in these cash strapped times,seriously best bit of advice I'd give to any pregnant mum is save your £300 and spend it on a mountain buggy instead.

Sorry but being prepared beforehand,having helpful tips,being able to ask questions re time saving in a safe way,dealing with formula when out,the ins and outs of mixed feeding is waaaaay better than reading tiny print at 3am the first time you use formula.

The NCT give half the picture and it's shite.

I quite agree and that is why I said you can call the NCT feeding helpline. Admittedly they're not open at 3am but they are open 8am-midnight. That's pretty good.

When I used to go to meet ups we had a couple of twin mums who were regs. I got lots of lovely baby cuddles when mum went for a wee :)

There are so many places you can get help with formula feeding (every formula company for a start) but good breastfeeding support is necessary for those trying to breastfeed and providing that support doesn't mean formula feeders are not catered for. The needs are different. Breastfeeding is a skill that often needs to be learnt. Making up a bottle is much simpler because you just follow the instructions. Regularity, "is my baby getting enough", "am I doing it right?" are universal queries which is why the helpline offers that support to all parents.

Unless you've used the helpline or talked to someone who has in last 2 years I think it's a little unfair to make sweeping statements.

The helpline costs the same as a local call btw. Not £300.

Formula is a feeding choice which the vast maj of babies have at some point.If you're paying £300 you should get the full picture and the information you want,need and ask for.

Perfectly possible to encompass and offer support for both-the NCT simply don't want to as it doesn't fit in with their image.

Giving a twin mum your hands for 5 minutes isn't embracing twin pregnancies or making twin mums feel welcome.

I mean I agree about needing more than here's the box, get on with it. The other stuff just sounds like a load of misconceptions to me. Not that that isn't important. NCT must address these misconceptions and any events that are within their control that might contribute to those opinions.

As a volunteer running a postnatal group making sure the venue is accessible for all mums (including multiples), making sure all mums feeding or who otherwise have their hands full get a drink and that they can go to the loo does help. Not bad for a £1 donation.

As does providing information about Homestart and TAMBA, having a conversation and sharing experiences. All really valuable and the cost? Sod all.

Polka, I signed up last year for a ballroom dancing class (with dh).

Actually, we have decided since then that we're not very likely to go ballroom dancing now (and we were or he was not very good at ballroom dancing anyway....) and we would have been better off doing ceilidh dancing. We have been to several ceilidhs, and had a good time.

I wonder what would have happened if I had told the ballroom dancing teacher, at one of the ballroom dancing classes on the ballroom dancing course, that we'd like to cover ceilidh dancing as well, because we think that in a few months time we'll be ceilidh dancing, and not doing much ballroom at all.

Here's what she might have said:

Sorry, MsTiktok*, but my course was clearly labelled 'ballroom dancing'....if I was going to include other dance options it would have been labelled 'dancing' or even 'ballroom and ceilidh dancing'. It wasn't. Everyone here has come for ballroom, and wants to learn that

• If I teach you ceilidh dancing for you to only actually do it in a few months time, you are likely to have forgotten quite a lot of what I teach you - how would you remember it sufficiently well to do it without mistakes?

• the thing about ceilidh dancing, is the instructions are given at the time you need them - by the caller. So advance teaching of the steps is not really needed - sure you'll be awkward at first and you'll be learning as you go, with practice, but the first few times you do it, you do have the instructions there. It's not the same with ballroom dancing - no one is shouting out how to do it for you

• however, if you would like to cover ceilidh dancing, then I can help you individually - just not in the sessions clearly labelled 'ballroom'

I think she'd have been a bit taken aback to be told we were paying her, and that she had a cheek giving us only 'half the picture' :)

I do agree based on my personal experience that the breastfeeding class I attended left a lot to be desired. But that was pre-policy change regarding formula and feeding. The class was also optional and if you opted out you didn't pay but I think some teachers do the antenatal and breastfeeding bit. A breastfeeding counsellor did ours. I complained it was shit but I think that particular woman was a bit crap, not the whole organisation.

Sorry Tiktok I don't think that analogy fits at all.

When I was pregnant, my GP suggested that I go to the NCT classes on the basis that I was "the right type" Needless to say, I didn't go

I did go to the NHS classes and tbh, I wonder of the NHS had been infiltrated by a splinter group of the NCT as the m/w refused to talk about any pain relief

Basically the NCT only want to provide support only for mothers who will be rich,singleton,natural birthers and feeders.

They're not interested in the vast majority which is the rest of us.That is fine but do be honest guys otherwise you're simply taking money off of people with false pretences.

Sounds like Kirsty was spot on to be frank.

Pain relief = cost, MissBee

Probably not Miss. My NCT teacher absolutely covered pain relief.

Shit classes happen in NCT, NHS and other providers. It's not because the organisation is shit it's because that particular teacher is. The issue is when an organisation fails to have any accountability or auditory process. NCT does but it needs to be more robust IMHO.

Interesting that you completely disregard everyone's points Polka. But you carry on dear :)

"Sorry Tiktok I don't think that analogy fits at all. "

In what way?

I thought it was a brilliant analogy tiktok

Because pain relief,c/ss and formula are more often than not part of the picture not a separate entity however much NCT would rather they weren't and most mothers I know want to be fully prepared for any eventuality not an NCT ideal.

That's why NCT classes cover c-section and pain relief. What do you think they cover for 20 hours? What whale music to choose and how to breathe? Don't be naïve.