I come from a gypsy / travelling family AMA

[TowerTumble]

I have name changed for this. I see so much misconception and ignorance around the travelling community and towards families like mine. I've started an AMA so if you have any questions to try and stop this misconception I'll answer everything I can!

What's your point? That some people choose to go there?...

I really have no idea why I'm on here. Anyone that says anything remotely different just gets told to shut up. I said it before. My mum was a teacher and taught traveller kids and said they often weren't treated well in the school system and obviously that's the reason why these projects exist

I cease to give a flying fuck - I didn't come on here to get everything I type questioned and nit picked

Unwatching. Might as well nail jelly to a ceiling than continue posting on here.

So how do the children who are removed from school get that choice?

I can easily imagine that many teenagers would happily agree to being removed from school - but teenagers may not be the best judges of what is a good idea in the longer term.

I'll say again before I head off: if you're literate, then you've been educated - whether in a formal school setting or at home.

If you weren't literate, you wouldn't be posting on the internet.

The point is that if someone completely removes their child from an educational environment - or to block them from further education as has happened to some of my family members - then they are taking it upon themselves to remove choice from their child.

this

Other people leave litter lying about and it always bothers me when they do. However, I can't pin the blame on any particular group.

Sometimes I've picked up litter and dog poo when out for a walk. Most times I've no idea who left it there. Once, I came across a picnic place in a small wood near a village in Derbyshire. Whoever had had the picnic had left two used disposable barbecues, heaps of empty cans and bottles, cigarettes/ spliff remnants, crisp packets and plastic bags scattered about. There was no sign of any people. My friend and I cleared up, using the plastic bags that lay about.

Out for a walk the other day, saw a couple with two dogs. The woman was picking up the dog poo but then she decided to leave the full poo bag by the path and they carried on with their walk. The couple were middle aged, ordinary-looking man and a woman, walking their dogs, in the woods.

I can't explain their behaviour, but I wondered whether they often did that. They were not travellers.

I'm out too. It's quite telling that the people who have been (politely) talking about the reasons why education and especially literacy mean choices have been spoken to more rudely than eg those focusing on the issues around vandalism and littering, which not all travellers are responsible for.

A very small number CHOOSE to have an education. Because they have that choice

Kids being pulled out of school at the end of primary is not about their choices.

Two things before I am out too
I think that subjects like this are worth politely airing again and again because that is a part of how change happens.
Its my experience that (mostly) people don't get so angry and defensive if they are 100% sure that their choices and opinions are the right ones.

It sounds like you've come across the Vicky Pollards of the Traveller community. The same ones who do all the callout videos on Tiktok and women fighting in the street. Most Travellers would refer to them as "a holy devine show". There are certain families that are considered low brow (to put it diplomatically) and it's likely they are going around in a group with the intention of making a show of themselves.

Well that’s a real shame if it genuinely is only a small proportion. I wonder how that could be tackled? Because I consider myself pretty easy going, I don’t care what others are doing and am very non - judgmental (I hope or at least you to be) so if my perception of them is that they are usually trouble then most people must hold a very dim view of them. I don’t have the answer but I think it is a fascinating history and it’s a shame that these individuals are the ones from that community that we’re seeing. I don’t suppose people like John Fury help either, walking around bullying people in the public eye.

The same way you try to reform any group with bad habits: education, removal from the source as young as possible (not ethical!), increased resources, education..... The problem when you are part of a culture that is opposed to the solutions, things will never change. Even when there's a willingness to change, it takes generations.

Contrary to what a poster said up thread, consultations with Irish Traveller mothers indicates strongly that they care about education and want their daughters to have a better education than they did. They recognize that illiteracy is a big hurdle. The problem I suppose is that how do you further engage in education when your community norms/ways of life oppose it? There is a massive fear of losing their identity and traditional ways of life, so how do you go about that then? Travellers generally speaking wish to remain discrete from the 'settled community' and fear that integration will dilute or erode their values. The ones who have become educated are seen as 'lesser' members, who have abandoned their ways. This is so much worse for men, I was reading about a man who became an emergency services worker and talked of his struggles of now not fitting in the Traveller world nor feeling part of the settled world. It must be very difficult.

The educational experiences of the Traveller community and impact of Traveller-focused initiatives: a qualitative study

This is a very good initiative in Lincolnshire where a mobile hybrid home-school team visits sites to facilitate education for children who have been taken out of school, usually at the end of primary school. This gives the children support (that their parents can't give) to continue education in a setting that they feel is appropriate. It seems to have worked well, but unfortunately financial cuts have impacted the reach.

Here is a quote from a father:

Jake noted that he followed the practises of ‘traditional’ parents to protect his children. He removed his daughter from school as he was concerned attendance may damage her reputation:

‘If they go to the secondary school, then boys will start spreading false rumours about them, that they’ve been messing with boys […] Then it will scandalise the family or the child […] No Travelling man would go near them, because they’ll say, “She’s been messing outside”.’ (Jake, Dad)

Fear of ostracisation from his own community motivated Jake to raise his daughter in a ‘sheltered’ manner where, for example, she was removed from school before Sex Education began, stating:

‘I know it’s old-fashioned, but that’s the way it’s always been.’ (Jake, Dad).

A lot of people do not realize the extent to which 'honour' is attached to GRT communities. A girl in particular is huge matter of honour and her reputation is crucial to the honour of the family. It's not just a simple case of saying they can do what they want at 18, it's much deeper than that, if you want inclusion in the community you don't want to contravene cultural norms/expectations, and the price for that can be very high.

Exactly. There’s huge engagement on improving educational outcomes and offering training specifically adjusted for Traveller cultural norms at the Traveller-led advocacy organisations I know of, especially from Traveller women.

In my borough there has been too, so much money has been invested in Traveller specific education services from pre-school upwards. It seems to have been somewhat successful in increasing attendance, but hasn't been successful at secondary level. We don't have the money/resources for home-schooling teachers unfortunately, I think something like the above project is the way forward.
ETA: I think the best way would be to have a school that is Traveller led, with qualified teachers who could deliver the basics in a culturally sensitive way.

I find that very sad that Jake appears to want something different for his daughters but doesn't feel he can achieve it because yes it takes more than one Dad (or Mum) to change things and the price of change can be high.....but everything is the way its always been until somebody changes it.

Well yes it is sad that there's a "cultural block" as the above research calls it. I'm sure over time things will change, and let's hope it's within a framework where 'traditionalists' see it as something beneficial for the community and will encourage it.

So popular representations of.y9ur community are inaccurate when negative but very much accurate when positive, is that correct?

That's obviously not what the poster said. If you have a point, why don't you add it directly instead of putting words in her mouth?

That's very snippy.
I find the traveller culture fascinating. It's quite hard to imagine what it might be like living in such a community, because I have never lived in anything like a community until the last 10 years where I've lived in the same place and have got to know what's going on locally, and made friends.
I understand that the travelling people are very proud and also very marginalised. I think this makes them more likely to stick to traditional ways and it's difficult to begin to recognise that some of the things that we have in more mainstream culture (such as education) would actually benefit them.
I did some work with travellers some years ago, visiting sites to try to offer health services. The people I encountered were pleased to have the health services offered but did not always find it easy to engage.

amen to that.

A lot of travellers attend our local secondary schools. I wonder if the fact that the local girls’ school is single sex helps with attendance?
It’s not just the travelling community who think like this either, even if it’s not about ‘honour’ in the same way. Lots of parents feel their daughters mightn’t be hassled as much and will be able to concentrate and participate more in their education in an all-girls school.

Yes that is definitely a factor that facilitates entry into secondary school. The daughters of my women all go to a particular girls school (and many of them went there too) and I believe part of the Traveller strategy is that they get priority, as they don't live in the catchment, but it's a girls Catholic school. I haven't heard of any who have stayed on until GCSE though.
And yes I know many who prefer single sex schools for girls, myself included.