I come from a gypsy / travelling family AMA

[TowerTumble]

I have name changed for this. I see so much misconception and ignorance around the travelling community and towards families like mine. I've started an AMA so if you have any questions to try and stop this misconception I'll answer everything I can!

It's amazing how retrospective planning permission seems to work for one group over others....

What trades do they learn?

I think it's much better to let them live on their own land, rather than pulling up illegally on sports pitches or taking up council houses. It makes no sense to deny it and by refusing it it will cost the LA so much money in trying to house them.

True, but do the process first, not later then pull the oppressed minority card. I think you should be able to build on your own land, the process is just wrong and I can see why people who have a slightly high shed get pissed off when they see it happen. It should be more open, I've bought this brownfield, I'm building a site for x caravans with a shower block etc, ok then, we'll come and check it when you're done and make sure you're to spec. All clear and above board.

The process is at fault here.

"most girls naturally want to do feminine jobs and I think that goes for all walks of life"

and i think that is complete rubbish!

My best friend who works in construction would agree with you.

The kids round our way definitely speak with a local Scottish accent. In one school in particular, the other kids had been influenced by Traveller dialect - e.g. they used the words 'gadge' and 'barry'.

Etymological dictionaries state that these are derived from Romani words, but the Traveller children using them were definitely from Scottish/Irish families, albeit with some English links.

I mentioned above that they'd speak to one another in what they fondly thought was a unique tongue, but just sounded like Scots to me. As I said in a previous post, Travellers tend to be revered in the Scottish folk scene because of their preservation of old Scots tales and songs.

There are Traveller autobiographies which are well known within Scotland, but possibly not outside. Off the top of my head, there's "The Yellow on the Broom" by Betsy Whyte and "Tales from the Tent", by Jess Smith.

If I recall correctly, Betsy Whyte died in Glenfarg whilst staying in a caravan at the Glenfarg Folk Festival.

but hang on they all come from families who work hard and save hard so why would they need council housing?

If they are refused planning permission, or, if the council decide to demolish the site (which has been done before) the families become homeless and it's the council's responsibility to put them into temporary accommodation. A lot of the planning opposition is because they are Travellers and locals don't want them in the locality.

I went to school in the 80s with several traveller families who lived in council housing and they went to secondary school - women as well. Some of the girls had relationships with non travellers.

I don't think everyone lives the exact same life - even if they come from a traveller family. Some will be more strict and traditional and others won't be.

There are no council owned traveller sites in the area I live in as far as I'm aware. The nearest one is about 15 miles away

Interesting thread. I have a tenuous connection to the Scottish Traveller community and it always amuses me how non-travellers view GRTs through their very narrow, mainstream lens and with such a lack of self awareness. The non-traveller world is just as socially constructed as the traveller world and everything we do - education, work, how we bring up children, etc - is shaped by our own cultural norms.

Our way of of life is just as alien to them as theirs is to ours, but it’s only non-travellers who cannot conceive that not everyone wants to live the way they do, even when women from the community clearly state that they they don’t, because they’re so sure they know better. It’s a very paternalistic (and dare I say colonialist) mindset.

it always amuses me how non-travellers view GRTs through their very narrow, mainstream lens and with such a lack of self awareness. The non-traveller world is just as socially constructed as the traveller world

So insightful!

I remember years ago talking to someone raised in an extremely religious, traditional community. She asked, with genuine bafflement, how people met their partners in the secular world. I stopped for a second, then replied that it happened a bit chaotically and sometimes not at all.

The emphasis on strict gender roles, and suspicion of mainstream education, is not unique to travelling communities.

Do you not think though that there is an element of personal choice missing? I agree about cultural norms but genuinely believe that one of MY cultural norms is that parents shouldn't visit their cultural norms on their children? I come from a generation where society was more hidebound although my generation saw big changes to what women could and could not do. My lovely late Mil came from a geographical socio economic group where she was expected to adhere to their social norms but did not. Eventually it led to a complete breakdown of her relationship with her family. It was basically because she married "out of group" to a man with a white collar job and encouraged her sons to aspire as well. It would have been fine if they had gone into a factories as apprentices, but they went off to training at college (not university) and gained qualifications which was thought to be getting above themselves...then when they didn't date girls out of their own group, that was laid at her door too.

I think that's a tad unfair. That's stereotyping non travellers - when there are non travellers who don't have a narrow lens. There are travellers who marry non travellers for example - it's not always one lifestyle v another. There's always going to be shades of grey and some deviation along the way

There are also people who didn't have formal education in past generations. I know my family didn't - they were expected to leave school early to help provide for their families

"The emphasis on strict gender roles, and suspicion of mainstream education, is not unique to travelling communities."

I don't think that anyone has said that it is, I certainly haven't. If this AMA had been about many other of the same social setups where life choice is limited by tradition or culture, I (althought not everybody) would be asking the same kind of questions

There are also people who have had relationships and kids with people from traveller backgrounds - Molly Mae and Tommy spring to mind. It might be easier for them as they are both loaded and won't have the challenges that poorer couples might have. Certainly financially.

She's got a child and another on the way - not married and has her own career and money. Lots of it as does he.

Yes. Some people on this thread seem to be using 'education' to mean 'tertiary education'. My mum left school at 14 in order to work in service (as did her sisters) so that the the two boys in the family could have an apprenticeship.

My grandfather from Eastern Europe was a peasant farmer. Only the boys went to school - from 7 years old until 10 yrs old. My dad's first job at the age of 10 was as the goatherd on his dad's farm.

Anyone capable of writing on this thread has had an education, whether at school or at home. Otherwise, how could they read and write?

You know I've discussed this countless times and and that's the first time I've ever seen someone use the term colonialist. You are so right. That absolutely sums up the way it feels.

Nothing like non travellers all being lumped in together as narrow minded. What's the point of this thread now?

Is it colonialist or paternalistic to advocate for choice? My father was an orphan, he ran away and lied about his age to join the army at 15 to get out of the orphanage who shipped the boys off to farmers or fishing boats. He wanted more choice for his children.

Tommy is half Traveller but from what I read he was raised by his mum and estranged from his dad, so didn't grow up as a Traveller. The Travellers I know do not not consider him to be a Traveller, they say he's only jumping on his brother's bandwagon.

Dare I say it, but it's a well known fact (that even GRT advocates purport) that gypsies, Roma and Travellers face the worst economic poverty in England. It is the desire to stay in their ways that highly contributes to this. A man who wants to be the breadwinner and have a SAHW needs to be financially solvent. When you throw in the marriage age of 20 for a man (although it's usually younger) the likelihood of that happening is very unlikely in any community, especially when you have a larger than average family.
In any community where there is high dependency on state welfare the solution generally points to a drive to increase their education levels. There are a movement of Traveller women who are pushing for this, but even they have been shot down by their own community.
When you want to exclusively live 'among your own' you need to have options to facilitate this. Traveller men are very disproportionately overrepresented in prison. The reason given is that they have had to turn to crime to prop up their lifestyle as they are mostly illiterate and living in poverty. There is nothing colonial or paternalistic about either of these things. If a community wants to live a certain way and finances themselves, let them get on with it, but this is largely not the case for Travellers and so the vicious circle just continues.

@godmum56 for me it’s about choice too. Poster saying their children not going to Secondary school. Children don’t have a choice about that and also limits their life choices going forward.

Many of the women might have jobs relating to beauty, dress making etc and won’t usually choose something like plumbing, but what about other jobs where the split between males and females maybe more even like teacher, doctor, accountant, solicitor, vet. That choice probably denied due to lack of educational qualifications and not being encouraged to to aim for something like ‘it’s not for you or something someone in our community does’ Nothing wrong with working in beauty industry but it should be a choice from all career opportunities out there.

Doesn’t just relate to traveller communities.

This absolutely