I come from a gypsy / travelling family AMA

[TowerTumble]

I have name changed for this. I see so much misconception and ignorance around the travelling community and towards families like mine. I've started an AMA so if you have any questions to try and stop this misconception I'll answer everything I can!

Hi OP

You’ve mentioned ethnicity/ ethic identity a few times I think. Could you tell us a bit more about this? I did a DNA test recently (was adopted as a baby). In my adoption paperwork there is a letter from the social worker talking about my ethnic heritage / background which includes, in her words, “part gypsy” (amongst others) but there’s nothing in my DNA results to indicate this and would love to know more! Do you know if travellers/ gypsies have distinct DNA or is it more of a values/choice (for want of a better word)? Thank you!

Hello @babylamb4 and @ThejoyofNC I hope you are still around on this quite amazingly lively thread. I really admire your willingness to keep coming back.

This thread has made me think about a lot of things. It's really interesting how easy it is for people to be so fixed in their own culture and time that it's almost invisible, like air. No one on this thread is lamenting the lack of opportunity for children to become candlestick makers or weave togas for a living. Human beings have had massively different lives over the centuries and do now over the globe. There's a lot in what you describe that resonates with me and I admire. In most respects I'm massively different but feel a lot of respect. I'm not keen on generalisations and I don't forget what happened last century. My Sunday school teacher was a concentration camp survivor.

I hope you don't mind if I ask you about how boys usually learn their trades. I'm asking partly because my boy isn’t likely to go to secondary school. Practical family businesses make sense to me.

I think that your comment about toga makers and candlestick makers is not relevant.. Candlesticks ARE still made in many materials but that is a jocular aside. People still can choose to go into what are now called "endangered crafts" such as being a cooper, a wheelwright, a whip and crop maker and so on. We are back to that word choose. I find your comment about life changes slightly strange too because that seems to be to be precisely what the GRT posters on here are advocating against!

I’m interested to know in what way you manage to avoid visiting your own cultural norms on your children? We are all a product of the culture we grow up in. I think some of us who belong the dominant culture don’t realise this because our norms are society’s norms, but they don’t exist in a vacuum.

In my experience, one of the main reasons travellers generally don’t choose to work conventional jobs is because they want to be self employed. Working for a boss, being dictated to, having to ask for things like time off is anathema to them. They’re fiercely independent. Also, the disingenuous “what if girls wanted to be a plumber or electrician??” rubbish up thread is just that. The vast majority wouldn’t just like the vast majority of settled women don’t.

I’m obviously speaking generally. I do know Scottish Traveller women who work - one in an office but gave it up when she got married, one who works with the LA as a sort of community liaison officer and one who is a retired nurse. She was ripped away from her family and community as a small child though and didn’t find them again until she was an adult. This practice was prevalent for decades in Scotland, causing untold generational trauma and a one of many reasons the Travelling community can be distrustful of authorities.

@SleepDeprivedbutDetermined they usually learn from their fathers more often than not. Although some will want to go in another direction and either do a course, are self taught, or work with other friends/family.

With regards to your son, I can almost guarantee that if you approach a local firm they will take him on. He will learn on the job and as hil skills improve, so will his pay.

As I have explained, its because one of my cultural norms is freedom of choice.

Totally! I completely support endangered crafts. What I was trying to say is some people on this thread are very worried about kids missing the opportunity for a specific kind of academic education but they're not saying 'Oh no what if they want to be candlestick makers' anyway I obviously didn't make my point very well 🙂

What I mean about different lifestyles in different times and places is they seem 'normal' to the people living them though some will always try to make changes or find a different path. So the kind of education lots of kids are doing here in England now has a mainstream pattern which seems reasonable, normal and maybe better than other choices to the people doing it.

I'm obviously not always good at explaining what I mean!

So, that’s the only cultural norm you impose? Do you allow them freedom of choice from the moment they’re born? Or when they’re 18? Surely you understand that the values you instil in them, the behaviours and practices you model and the expectations you set are all cultural norms.

If you have a daughter, would you be happy if she decided to marry young, move into a caravan and be a stay at home mum? Or if she was content to stack shelves for a living? Probably not. I suspect that your children’s “freedom of choice” only exists within the parameters of what you deem acceptable.

I don't fully believe in freedom of choice eg carrying a gun but essentially, as a non-conformist (in church sense) I do believe in freedom of choice and of conscience BUT the scope of that freedom is immensely dependent on privilege.

A white child walking home from school has more freedom of choice than a child whose skin colour makes them differently visible (speaking from local experience of family and friends) and OP explained that freedom of choice about going to a particular restaurant or holiday place can be curtailed by similar barriers.

Thank you for the encouragement, at a tough time its really appreciated 💐

well with respect, you had me confused 😁All I am advocating for on this thread is choice. What got me going was one phrase which was talking about removing children from school at an early age and then the girls learned household skills and the boys learned work skills from their fathers full stop and the general attitude from SOME RGT posters that they wanted/expected their children to remain within their cultural norms rather than being able to choose their own way.

When I was still working in a secondary school, the only boys straight out of school who were guaranteed to be taken on at a firm were those with family connections there. It was even difficult for them to obtain work experience.

That's why so many boys were taking practical courses at the the local college - in order to get some practical experience, knowledge and training.

As a woman who grew up in the 60's I totally understand and agree with what you are saying, but does that mean that its ok for a child's family and culture to further limit choice because they want their children to stay within the mores of the community they were born into? As I explained upthread, my mother in law (and to a certain lesser extent my late husband and I) were affected by the expectations of a socio-economic geographical group. Her extended family were very much pro "sticking to what people like us do" whereas my background from my family is very much "my children will have more choice than I did" I should say that I am childless. MY Mil herself was very much of the "more choice than I did" school of thought who welcomed me and encouraged her sons (she only had sons) to aspire. Please do note I am saying "choice" and not "formal education"

With all due respect it’s none of your business. You can advocate all you want for it but you aren’t going to change a culture that is not yours. I’d suggest you stay in your lane and pick apart your own culture.

@godmum56 similar age and some overlapping family experiences. Not wanting to derail or argue.

Your posts are defensive - and the OP started this thread so people can ask questions - if you don't like other people's posts you don't need to respond to them

It's no problem and I'm Sorry if you're having a tough time. I said earlier in the thread that most British people have been scammed into thinking that the only way they can be successful is to spend decades in education (and debt). That works for very few people so you are much better to focus on what works for your son instead of what other people think he should be doing.

My mum was a teacher and used to teach children on their sites. She was treated amazingly. This was 70s and 80s, when she died in 2008 so many of her ex students turned up and expressed their love for her. She used to say about the appalling prejudice against them and it's so sad to see that it has never changed.

Travellers organisations advocate for educational support too. Bursaries are provided to help travellers and Roma access university etc.
It seems people within the community and culture do want more choice too.

What do you think about the travellers who cause chaos, damage and leave rubbish behind?
sorry it’s a daily fail link but I saw this recently:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15595231/amp/Travellers-leave-war-zone-council-evicted-illegal-site.html

Read the thread

God yes I’m defensive. I wont sit back and have a nobody think they know what’s best for us. Youd be defensive too if i told you what I thought about how yous bring your children up.

Since when was freedom of speech not allowed?

mention it once and move on stop banging on about it. You don’t get to dictate here when your own culture is flawed

On this thread by the sounds of it