I’m a white woman who married a Muslim man AMA?

[Vielendanke]

As the title says, I’m a white British lady who married a Muslim man, an Asian Muslim man no less. I realise it’s not that uncommon these days but whenever the topic comes up with new people I meet, say at work, or through friends etc people always seem to have a 10001 questions, some that they are quite timid to ask.

so it’s made me think that maybe people have questions on this sort of thing, and some they maybe don’t feel comfortable asking face to face to someone they ‘know’…. Enter MN

Ama and I’ll answer honestly, the good the bad and the ugly

That’s really great, I’m pleased your in-laws accepted you, it wasn’t the same for me and I know I’m not alone in that but it’s obvious that our experiences would be different as we’re different people who married different people from different cultures and different communities.

Im from up north, a place one typically associates as having a large Muslim population. I’ve also said my husband doesn’t treat me like a second class citizen. I think the only negative thing that I’ve said is that some of his family didn’t approve of our marriage which is true.

i think the religion thing IS important because that’s where the misconception is, that Muslim men treat women badly. I’ve said that my husband, despite having quite a traditional upbringing doesn’t. He does lots of cleaning (probably more than me haha) and is a very hands on dad, who despite working full time and kids being breastfed has always shared night wakings with our kids. I actually think that is what Muslim men are ‘supposed’ to do. Maybe people would ask about polygamy? Weddings? What we wore for our wedding? How you keep both sides happy when we are both fairly laid back? Would dh prefer me to wear hijab? Etc (These are the kinds of questions I get at work)

Does the male female inequality not anger you so much? I can't see how you get passed that?

In the grand sense? Of course it bothers me. I’ve said my husband doesn’t treat me as lesser or a second class citizen. Obviously there are some that do, but all you need to do is to look across the relationship board on MN and unfortunately you can see that’s actually very common across all ethnic groups. Tbh it seems to be a heterosexual relationship issue and male female inequality is bred into most societies on earth. If you’re in a heterosexual relationship with a man, how do you get passed that? That some men treat women badly?

'As the title says, I’m a white British lady who married a Muslim man, an Asian Muslim man no less.'

Asian man no less?

1. An Asian man is no less - that sounds like have you're own prejudices which you're reflecting even though perhaps not consciously.
2. 2 women are murdered a week in the UK by their partners - lets keep that in mind when we talk about how cultures treat women. Bad and good men are found in all cultures.
3. In all communities some cultures are more insular than others e.g. Travellers
4. I can understand you're MIL dismay - circumcision is as important in the Muslim religious culture as in the Jewish. Following the rites of Islam for Muslim parents is not a choice for the child to make - they are raised Muslim. A Pakistani woman would not have said - my child can decide, the parent decides and actually it is medically healthy for a boy to be circumcised. I accept that your husband is perhaps not that religiously bothered and you've both made a joint decision- I'm sure the MIL has her own side of the story and it's a shame no one represents that.
5. I am betting you've married into the Mirpur community and here I am generalising... if so again, each community has cultures and they have theirs and it varies amongst them, I know Mirpuri women who have married who've they wanted and are well educated - parents mentality plays a big role.
6. When talking of Pakistani men lets not forget that like others they too have a certain charm that princesses and heiresses have been known to fall for...this isn't a new thing, it's been happening since the 60's and hope you continue to have happy relationship.

@Emeraldcut could you please point me towards the peer reviewed research that backs your claim that “it is medically healthy for a boy to be circumcised”?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/circumcision/about/pac-20393550

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3684945/

https://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/circumcision

https://sti.bmj.com/content/74/5/368

Are there any white families you know which you would describe as insular?

I can't imagine a white family who enjoy family time described as insular.

Point one- not my own prejudice but there is most certainly a societal prejudice against Muslim and Asian men, particularly Asian muslim men. Pakistani men are so often vilified in the media

point 3 - yes some are and certain pockets of the Pakistani community are quite insular, some are very open. I married someone from a more insular community (but clearly not that insular)

point 4- I don’t care anyone’s point on involuntary circumcision. It is not an act I’ll participate in, despite how well intentioned those beliefs might be. It is still a sunnah so not compulsory and there is no age when it must be done, some schools of thought say infancy, some say upon puberty

So when I say insular it goes beyond enjoying family time and more a dislike or distrust of outsiders

I can think of white neighbours who dislike outsiders. They wouldn't be described as insular though.

Are you aware of any positive representations of British Pakistani men?

Do you have anything positive to share about Pakistani culture?

i don’t understand the first point, white neighbors who don’t like outsiders ie they don’t like their neighbors? I mean from a community pov, well would they disown their child if he or she married a neighbor? And have pervasive stereotypes about them? If so then yes! So I’d say the Britain first type racist who would do exactly the above, yes they are insular.

Yes my husband is an all around great guy. Does more than his fair share around the house and with the kids without prompt, calls out misogynistic crap when he hears it and I’m sure there are many many others just like him. Which is why the stereotype and the looks i get and questions actually really bother me on his behalf

positives- Asian weddings are a whole event (my husbands family they are quite low key, but others just wow, the clothes, the food, the makeup the spectacle, it’s like you’re at a Hollywood party. I really respect the emphasis home cooked food, and especially vegetarian options.

i find positives from culture really hard to find in any circumstances. I’ve sat here trying to think of positives from white British culture and I’m struggling, because for every good thing I can think of another 5 that caveat or negate it

You know the ignorant amongst us are going to paint all Pakistani men with the strokes of your brush, so you chose to vilify the vilified under the guise of your 'personal experience'. Nice.

Insular is a 2 way street, sometimes people respond to racism and being looked down upon by not wanting to befriend them, sometimes they feel a threat to their culture or way of life. I'm sure the british colonisers in India could tell you more about that. It's human nature, not specific to Pakistanis.

I'm glad your opinion of your husband has changed during this thread from:

'ItsSnowJokes · 02/09/2022 15:00

Do you feel that your husband treats you as inferior to him and other males?

He doesn’t know but I can see that it’s been bred into him and unfortunately it’s something I see in a lot of my friends that have married Asian/ Muslim men'

To:

'Yes my husband is an all around great guy. Does more than his fair share around the house and with the kids without prompt, calls out misogynistic crap when he hears it and I’m sure there are many many others just like him. Which is why the stereotype and the looks i get and questions actually really bother me on his behalf'

That was a U turn.

So it seems his mother has done something right? Rather than be grateful to her for raising a son that you preferred over men from your own race and leaving you alone to live your life without interference you've decided to embarrass him, his family (who clearly you do not see as your'e own) and your children publicly, I guess he should be thankful for the anonymity you've afforded him - you sound like a great wife and daughter in law.

Regarding circumcision, I'm not interested on you're thoughts either - until you confuse your ignorance with wisdom ...be interesting to know which schools of thought recommends circumcision at puberty.

The imperfections we see in others are those that hide within us, not always but sometimes.

.

It’s not a U turn. Because the first point has a typo that I just read now, it was meant to read, ‘he doesn’t no (as in treat me differently) but I can see that it’s been bred into him. Meaning that he’s done the work, and challenged some of the views maybe he had before or maybe that he grew up with. To me that’s pretty good going for anyone to be the self reflective.

i cant respond to the second part because it is so incoherent it barely makes sense. My MIL is not an evil woman, not even a bad woman, but we do have clashes, and she is prone to emotional blackmail and manipulation (like pretending she had cancer) to get her own way. I’ll clash with that no matter the culture. I’m not sure where you’ve got dh should be grateful to me, but cool.

re circumcision again, incoherent point. But you do know people use the exact same justification for FGM and btw the 4 schools of thought all ruled that female circumcision was wajib. Soooo, point is, things change.

also since you need some help re puberty, please read the below from one of THE most conservative Islamic sites, showing clear precedence to circumcise on the cusp of puberty

Ibn al-Mundhir said:
There is no report that may be referred to concerning the time of circumcision, and no Sunnah to be followed.
With regard to the time when it becomes obligatory:
Some of the scholars were of the view that it is not obligatory until after puberty, because the duties of sharee’ah are not obligatory until one reaches puberty.
Al-Nawawi said:
Our companions said: The time when circumcision becomes obligatory is after puberty.
Al-Majmoo’, 1/351
Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) favoured the view that it is obligatory before puberty, so that the child will reach puberty in a circumcised state, but the obligation here is upon the guardian, not the child.

link below

https://islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/14624

I’ve just read the whole thread. Blimey @Vielendanke you’ve certainly been a magnet for posters with massive chips on their shoulders. 🤦🏻‍♀️ What nasty, nitpicking attempts to shame and silence you for you speaking about your own experience. You’ve been respectful throughout, and clear that you’re talking about your specific experiences and circumstances. It’s an interesting AMA, and I am in awe of your patience at dealing with the unpleasant chippyness.

A typo? Okay. There's nothing incoherent about giving you're MIL some credit for raising 'an all round great guy'

And we all need to self reflect as we mature, white men are sexist too, domestic violence cases increase after football matches.

I'm past puberty so, I don't need help with it, thank you and I really don't care about what some random 'really conservative' guy says when the vast majority of Muslims around the world agree that 1) male circumcision should be done (and as demonstrated it's the healthier option) and 2 it is by majority of Muslims cultures done something soon after birth which is also the healthier option. A bit more learning around FGM, if it's not too incoherent to understand....https://www.forwarduk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/FGM-DL-Leaflet-2019-Single-Pages-Updated-Branding.pdf

What I have understood you to say is: my hubby's ok (and he' is / has been working on it), but his family is just as described by EDL.

You can justify this opinion as being you're experience, but a maturer person would have realised that if people are querying you're relationship because they don't know any better then it will affect their opinion of all Pakistanis and very frankly there are these kind of families in all races and cultures.

All sons like their mothers respected if they themselves have any respect for their mother. Before belittling them it's only fair to ask yourself what character, responsibility and honoring of relationships have you shown you're husbands family. Now it's my turn to say not all Asian women respect their MILs - and I know that not all white women will think themselves superior and assume they don't need to earn respect of the family they are going into.

There is absolutely no evidence that it is the healthiest option to be circumcised as a male. Especially as a baby, the procedure is done to a baby without anesthetic, that is horrendous. They feel pain, the foreskin isn’t retractable therefore increasing the potential for complications.

sorry but all 4 schools of Sunni thought at one point said female circumcision is a sunnah. Now do I believe it to be part of Islam? NO, I don’t. Also to be clear did they mean type 4 fgm? Also no, they meant type 1, the removal of the clitoral hood. BUT there is precedence in Islamic thought. You may not care what the conservative scholars think but many do. The reason I posted the link from said conservative scholars was to show there is a precedence for circumcision on the cusp of puberty as you mentioned you were keen to know what thought believes that, so I showed you. A simple google will do the same, the shafi thought.

yes white men are awful also, one only needs to read half the threads here to prove that.

you are projecting your odd insecurities onto me here friend as to respecting my husbands family. I vehemently tried to fit in and to be amenable to them but i was fighting a losing battle with (some not all of them). If they treated me kindly then I would do the same, in spades. Tbh I do treat them kindly but that doesn’t mean I get to be verbally abused or spat at (sadly happened) or put up with any other toxic nonsense in the name of respecting family. That’s not respect, it’s abuse

Actually there is, and I have posted I think multiple links to prove both point, indeed a simple google search...

As you correctly said most religions are manipulated, so I am glad we both agree as do the vast majority of Muslims that FGM is not part of Islam.

No one is suggesting you accept abuse or that Pakistani families don't have issues. You came on to this forum to give your experience to people who don't have experiences of a White woman marrying a Pakistani man, and not only yours but of others in similar relationships that you know, to assume that it doesn't give readers a biased view and that you initiated that bias view isn't going to get you a pass from women of that community who do know better then the opinion your projecting. Are Asian Muslim women treated wonderfully by all white in laws? You've focussed on a culture when actually it's human nature and you've ignored that while educating the rest of us.

@SeaBlueSky I'm not going to have someone vilify Pakistani Muslim men when they already are vilified under the guise of 'their experience' and ignore the impact it might have on readers. As a vilified minority I do need to distinguish very clearly a) not all Pakistani Muslim men come from such families b) Misogyny and racism exists in all cultures c) It is human nature to want your son to marry from the same race/religion of the family and that needs to be kept in mind when reading this post. In my opinion this post required that clarification, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

There is also a lot of peer reviewed evidence that circumcision is of little to no benefit and can cause harm. Hence why I don’t believe in it being done involuntarily. At the end of the day it’s surgery and none necessary surgery, so I believe the person on whom it is to be performed should consent. It is literally 2024 I cannot believe that the concept of consent to the removal of a part of the body is being debated.

someone else can do a thread about their white MIL. I did a thread on MY experience. I’ve actually not ran down pakistani men, in fact the opposite but it would be disingenuous to say that misogyny doesn’t exist in the community. It does in every community. It just manifests different

its is absolutely NOT human nature to want your child to marry from the same race as you, that’s racism. Imagine if a white person was saying that. It’s deeply problematic

Interesting thread OP, ignore the gaslighters

So what Muslim things do you do apart from not eating pork (and presumably no alcohol either)?
You don't fast. Or cover your hair. Do you pray 5 times a day? Or at least go to the mosque for Friday prayers?

Yes I don’t drink and I’ve got a health condition that makes long fasting hrs dangerous for me (shorter are hard but ok)

it’s not incumbent on women to go to jummah, surely you know that. I don’t pray 5 times a day, but then so don’t a lot of other Muslims

It's not, but plenty go anyway.
I'm not Muslim myself but from a Muslim majority country. The definition in a non-majority country like the UK is quite interesting. there aren't many people who are culturally Muslim, like those who are culturally Christian. They go to church twice a year, tick 'Christian' if asked on a census but that's it. You say 'many Muslims don't' pray 5 times a day but in my country most do.

This is just my experience but people who identify as Muslim in the UK IME are usually very religious. If they're not, they don't call themselves Muslims. I have Pakistani friends from Muslim families who drink etc and quite clearly don't identify as such.

I'm Hindu and apart from not eating beef and believing in our Gods I don't do much really. I don't know whether I should continue to call myself as such.

with all due respect that’s because it’s not socially acceptable in most Muslim majority countries to be just culturally Muslim. But many are, you have no idea what happens in the privacy of their own homes. Lots of Muslims drink, sleep around, so drugs, it happens, and more than likely there are many people (Muslim by birth) in Saudi, iran, wherever that just go through the motions and then don’t give a shit at home. It’s human nature. People are diverse.
a lot of Muslims pray 5 times a day, probably quite a lot don’t and a lot fall in between.

it’s not incumbent on Muslim women to go to jummah, it’s also not very practical in the west , either for men or women.

but there’s more to being a Muslim than the narrow list of things you described.

But that's my point. You'd think in the UK it being acceptable to be 'culturally Muslim', more would be. But IME many aren't. If they're not that devout they attempt to distance themselves from the religion completely rather than being a 'lax' Muslim. Maybe it also depends on whether they were brought up in a close Muslim community.

The bigger philosophical question is though what does it mean to be a Muslim, or any religion really. Do you just have to believe in God? The philosophy? The entire system of governance?

I think you've misread my tone. I'm not implying that you're less of a Muslim or that being a Muslim involves a narrow list. These are just my observations on the people who identify as Muslims, as opposed to those who identify as other religions. Nobody can point a finger and say who is a Muslim and who isn't. That's between them and God (well Allah is the Arabic word for God).

Judaism is another one but there are so few of them it's difficult to compare. I haven't met many Jewish people anyway outside of religious contexts.

No actually there is not 'a lot of peer reviews' , which is why you are not posting links - this is common knowledge. You don't have to like it. It is not just Jews and Muslims that partake in it - because it is healthier for the child.

Birds of a feather flock together - that's a very obvious fact of life and negating it is deeply problematic. But it's you're problem.