As the title says, I’m a white British lady who married a Muslim man, an Asian Muslim man no less. I realise it’s not that uncommon these days but whenever the topic comes up with new people I meet, say at work, or through friends etc people always seem to have a 10001 questions, some that they are quite timid to ask.
so it’s made me think that maybe people have questions on this sort of thing, and some they maybe don’t feel comfortable asking face to face to someone they ‘know’…. Enter MN
Ama and I’ll answer honestly, the good the bad and the ugly
AMA
I’m a white woman who married a Muslim man AMA?
Vielendanke · 02/09/2022 14:57
namechange38582 · 03/09/2022 10:02
Agree with the below from @Glitteratitar. My DH is Indian Muslim and my experience could not be any different from the OPs. There was not any issue when we married from either family mine or his. Women are not treated as second class citizens in his family. There are disparities in every single family regardless of religion, culture etc.
'My husband is white English. Imagine if I started a thread saying “I’m married to a European, ask me anything” and the questions were along the lines of:
Does he have a job or he is a benefit scrounger?
Is he racist?
Is he obese?
Are you expected to eat fish and chips?
Is he clean and has a good sense of personal hygiene?
OP started this thread in a way that threw all Muslims in together. Only when challenged has she confirmed she means her husband’s community. So why does it matter that her husband is a Muslim when it’s the practices of her husband’s community that fall into the media stereotype rather than it being a religious issue.'
Violashift · 03/09/2022 12:29
Does the male female inequality not anger you so much? I can't see how you get passed that?
OperaStation · 22/02/2024 09:59
@Emeraldcut could you please point me towards the peer reviewed research that backs your claim that “it is medically healthy for a boy to be circumcised”?
Circumcision (male) - Mayo Clinic
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/circumcision/about/pac-20393550
Emeraldcut · 22/02/2024 08:18
'As the title says, I’m a white British lady who married a Muslim man, an Asian Muslim man no less.'
Asian man no less?
- An Asian man is no less - that sounds like have you're own prejudices which you're reflecting even though perhaps not consciously.
- 2 women are murdered a week in the UK by their partners - lets keep that in mind when we talk about how cultures treat women. Bad and good men are found in all cultures.
- In all communities some cultures are more insular than others e.g. Travellers
- I can understand you're MIL dismay - circumcision is as important in the Muslim religious culture as in the Jewish. Following the rites of Islam for Muslim parents is not a choice for the child to make - they are raised Muslim. A Pakistani woman would not have said - my child can decide, the parent decides and actually it is medically healthy for a boy to be circumcised. I accept that your husband is perhaps not that religiously bothered and you've both made a joint decision- I'm sure the MIL has her own side of the story and it's a shame no one represents that.
- I am betting you've married into the Mirpur community and here I am generalising... if so again, each community has cultures and they have theirs and it varies amongst them, I know Mirpuri women who have married who've they wanted and are well educated - parents mentality plays a big role.
- When talking of Pakistani men lets not forget that like others they too have a certain charm that princesses and heiresses have been known to fall for...this isn't a new thing, it's been happening since the 60's and hope you continue to have happy relationship.
TenacityWins · 02/03/2024 00:06
Are there any white families you know which you would describe as insular?
I can't imagine a white family who enjoy family time described as insular.
TenacityWins · 02/03/2024 22:26
I can think of white neighbours who dislike outsiders. They wouldn't be described as insular though.
Are you aware of any positive representations of British Pakistani men?
Do you have anything positive to share about Pakistani culture?
Emeraldcut · 03/03/2024 13:37
You know the ignorant amongst us are going to paint all Pakistani men with the strokes of your brush, so you chose to vilify the vilified under the guise of your 'personal experience'. Nice.
Insular is a 2 way street, sometimes people respond to racism and being looked down upon by not wanting to befriend them, sometimes they feel a threat to their culture or way of life. I'm sure the british colonisers in India could tell you more about that. It's human nature, not specific to Pakistanis.
I'm glad your opinion of your husband has changed during this thread from:
'ItsSnowJokes · 02/09/2022 15:00
Do you feel that your husband treats you as inferior to him and other males?
He doesn’t know but I can see that it’s been bred into him and unfortunately it’s something I see in a lot of my friends that have married Asian/ Muslim men'
To:
'Yes my husband is an all around great guy. Does more than his fair share around the house and with the kids without prompt, calls out misogynistic crap when he hears it and I’m sure there are many many others just like him. Which is why the stereotype and the looks i get and questions actually really bother me on his behalf'
That was a U turn.
So it seems his mother has done something right? Rather than be grateful to her for raising a son that you preferred over men from your own race and leaving you alone to live your life without interference you've decided to embarrass him, his family (who clearly you do not see as your'e own) and your children publicly, I guess he should be thankful for the anonymity you've afforded him - you sound like a great wife and daughter in law.
Regarding circumcision, I'm not interested on you're thoughts either - until you confuse your ignorance with wisdom ...be interesting to know which schools of thought recommends circumcision at puberty.
The imperfections we see in others are those that hide within us, not always but sometimes.
.
The time for circumcision - Islam Question & Answer
https://islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/14624
Emeraldcut · 03/03/2024 15:48
A typo? Okay. There's nothing incoherent about giving you're MIL some credit for raising 'an all round great guy'
And we all need to self reflect as we mature, white men are sexist too, domestic violence cases increase after football matches.
I'm past puberty so, I don't need help with it, thank you and I really don't care about what some random 'really conservative' guy says when the vast majority of Muslims around the world agree that 1) male circumcision should be done (and as demonstrated it's the healthier option) and 2 it is by majority of Muslims cultures done something soon after birth which is also the healthier option. A bit more learning around FGM, if it's not too incoherent to understand....https://www.forwarduk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/FGM-DL-Leaflet-2019-Single-Pages-Updated-Branding.pdf
What I have understood you to say is: my hubby's ok (and he' is / has been working on it), but his family is just as described by EDL.
You can justify this opinion as being you're experience, but a maturer person would have realised that if people are querying you're relationship because they don't know any better then it will affect their opinion of all Pakistanis and very frankly there are these kind of families in all races and cultures.
All sons like their mothers respected if they themselves have any respect for their mother. Before belittling them it's only fair to ask yourself what character, responsibility and honoring of relationships have you shown you're husbands family. Now it's my turn to say not all Asian women respect their MILs - and I know that not all white women will think themselves superior and assume they don't need to earn respect of the family they are going into.
Vielendanke · 03/03/2024 16:00
There is absolutely no evidence that it is the healthiest option to be circumcised as a male. Especially as a baby, the procedure is done to a baby without anesthetic, that is horrendous. They feel pain, the foreskin isn’t retractable therefore increasing the potential for complications.
sorry but all 4 schools of Sunni thought at one point said female circumcision is a sunnah. Now do I believe it to be part of Islam? NO, I don’t. Also to be clear did they mean type 4 fgm? Also no, they meant type 1, the removal of the clitoral hood. BUT there is precedence in Islamic thought. You may not care what the conservative scholars think but many do. The reason I posted the link from said conservative scholars was to show there is a precedence for circumcision on the cusp of puberty as you mentioned you were keen to know what thought believes that, so I showed you. A simple google will do the same, the shafi thought.
yes white men are awful also, one only needs to read half the threads here to prove that.
you are projecting your odd insecurities onto me here friend as to respecting my husbands family. I vehemently tried to fit in and to be amenable to them but i was fighting a losing battle with (some not all of them). If they treated me kindly then I would do the same, in spades. Tbh I do treat them kindly but that doesn’t mean I get to be verbally abused or spat at (sadly happened) or put up with any other toxic nonsense in the name of respecting family. That’s not respect, it’s abuse
Emeraldcut · 03/03/2024 15:48
A typo? Okay. There's nothing incoherent about giving you're MIL some credit for raising 'an all round great guy'
And we all need to self reflect as we mature, white men are sexist too, domestic violence cases increase after football matches.
I'm past puberty so, I don't need help with it, thank you and I really don't care about what some random 'really conservative' guy says when the vast majority of Muslims around the world agree that 1) male circumcision should be done (and as demonstrated it's the healthier option) and 2 it is by majority of Muslims cultures done something soon after birth which is also the healthier option. A bit more learning around FGM, if it's not too incoherent to understand....https://www.forwarduk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/FGM-DL-Leaflet-2019-Single-Pages-Updated-Branding.pdf
What I have understood you to say is: my hubby's ok (and he' is / has been working on it), but his family is just as described by EDL.
You can justify this opinion as being you're experience, but a maturer person would have realised that if people are querying you're relationship because they don't know any better then it will affect their opinion of all Pakistanis and very frankly there are these kind of families in all races and cultures.
All sons like their mothers respected if they themselves have any respect for their mother. Before belittling them it's only fair to ask yourself what character, responsibility and honoring of relationships have you shown you're husbands family. Now it's my turn to say not all Asian women respect their MILs - and I know that not all white women will think themselves superior and assume they don't need to earn respect of the family they are going into.
Emeraldcut · 03/03/2024 22:28
Actually there is, and I have posted I think multiple links to prove both point, indeed a simple google search...
As you correctly said most religions are manipulated, so I am glad we both agree as do the vast majority of Muslims that FGM is not part of Islam.
No one is suggesting you accept abuse or that Pakistani families don't have issues. You came on to this forum to give your experience to people who don't have experiences of a White woman marrying a Pakistani man, and not only yours but of others in similar relationships that you know, to assume that it doesn't give readers a biased view and that you initiated that bias view isn't going to get you a pass from women of that community who do know better then the opinion your projecting. Are Asian Muslim women treated wonderfully by all white in laws? You've focussed on a culture when actually it's human nature and you've ignored that while educating the rest of us.
@SeaBlueSky I'm not going to have someone vilify Pakistani Muslim men when they already are vilified under the guise of 'their experience' and ignore the impact it might have on readers. As a vilified minority I do need to distinguish very clearly a) not all Pakistani Muslim men come from such families b) Misogyny and racism exists in all cultures c) It is human nature to want your son to marry from the same race/religion of the family and that needs to be kept in mind when reading this post. In my opinion this post required that clarification, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Vielendanke · 03/03/2024 16:00
There is absolutely no evidence that it is the healthiest option to be circumcised as a male. Especially as a baby, the procedure is done to a baby without anesthetic, that is horrendous. They feel pain, the foreskin isn’t retractable therefore increasing the potential for complications.
sorry but all 4 schools of Sunni thought at one point said female circumcision is a sunnah. Now do I believe it to be part of Islam? NO, I don’t. Also to be clear did they mean type 4 fgm? Also no, they meant type 1, the removal of the clitoral hood. BUT there is precedence in Islamic thought. You may not care what the conservative scholars think but many do. The reason I posted the link from said conservative scholars was to show there is a precedence for circumcision on the cusp of puberty as you mentioned you were keen to know what thought believes that, so I showed you. A simple google will do the same, the shafi thought.
yes white men are awful also, one only needs to read half the threads here to prove that.
you are projecting your odd insecurities onto me here friend as to respecting my husbands family. I vehemently tried to fit in and to be amenable to them but i was fighting a losing battle with (some not all of them). If they treated me kindly then I would do the same, in spades. Tbh I do treat them kindly but that doesn’t mean I get to be verbally abused or spat at (sadly happened) or put up with any other toxic nonsense in the name of respecting family. That’s not respect, it’s abuse
Emeraldcut · 03/03/2024 15:48
A typo? Okay. There's nothing incoherent about giving you're MIL some credit for raising 'an all round great guy'
And we all need to self reflect as we mature, white men are sexist too, domestic violence cases increase after football matches.
I'm past puberty so, I don't need help with it, thank you and I really don't care about what some random 'really conservative' guy says when the vast majority of Muslims around the world agree that 1) male circumcision should be done (and as demonstrated it's the healthier option) and 2 it is by majority of Muslims cultures done something soon after birth which is also the healthier option. A bit more learning around FGM, if it's not too incoherent to understand....https://www.forwarduk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/FGM-DL-Leaflet-2019-Single-Pages-Updated-Branding.pdf
What I have understood you to say is: my hubby's ok (and he' is / has been working on it), but his family is just as described by EDL.
You can justify this opinion as being you're experience, but a maturer person would have realised that if people are querying you're relationship because they don't know any better then it will affect their opinion of all Pakistanis and very frankly there are these kind of families in all races and cultures.
All sons like their mothers respected if they themselves have any respect for their mother. Before belittling them it's only fair to ask yourself what character, responsibility and honoring of relationships have you shown you're husbands family. Now it's my turn to say not all Asian women respect their MILs - and I know that not all white women will think themselves superior and assume they don't need to earn respect of the family they are going into.
PingvsPong · 03/03/2024 23:04
So what Muslim things do you do apart from not eating pork (and presumably no alcohol either)?
You don't fast. Or cover your hair. Do you pray 5 times a day? Or at least go to the mosque for Friday prayers?
Vielendanke · 03/03/2024 23:14
Yes I don’t drink and I’ve got a health condition that makes long fasting hrs dangerous for me (shorter are hard but ok)
it’s not incumbent on women to go to jummah, surely you know that. I don’t pray 5 times a day, but then so don’t a lot of other Muslims
PingvsPong · 03/03/2024 23:04
So what Muslim things do you do apart from not eating pork (and presumably no alcohol either)?
You don't fast. Or cover your hair. Do you pray 5 times a day? Or at least go to the mosque for Friday prayers?
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PingvsPong · 03/03/2024 23:24
It's not, but plenty go anyway.
I'm not Muslim myself but from a Muslim majority country. The definition in a non-majority country like the UK is quite interesting. there aren't many people who are culturally Muslim, like those who are culturally Christian. They go to church twice a year, tick 'Christian' if asked on a census but that's it. You say 'many Muslims don't' pray 5 times a day but in my country most do.
This is just my experience but people who identify as Muslim in the UK IME are usually very religious. If they're not, they don't call themselves Muslims. I have Pakistani friends from Muslim families who drink etc and quite clearly don't identify as such.
I'm Hindu and apart from not eating beef and believing in our Gods I don't do much really. I don't know whether I should continue to call myself as such.
Vielendanke · 03/03/2024 23:14
Yes I don’t drink and I’ve got a health condition that makes long fasting hrs dangerous for me (shorter are hard but ok)
it’s not incumbent on women to go to jummah, surely you know that. I don’t pray 5 times a day, but then so don’t a lot of other Muslims
PingvsPong · 03/03/2024 23:04
So what Muslim things do you do apart from not eating pork (and presumably no alcohol either)?
You don't fast. Or cover your hair. Do you pray 5 times a day? Or at least go to the mosque for Friday prayers?
Vielendanke · 03/03/2024 23:36
with all due respect that’s because it’s not socially acceptable in most Muslim majority countries to be just culturally Muslim. But many are, you have no idea what happens in the privacy of their own homes. Lots of Muslims drink, sleep around, so drugs, it happens, and more than likely there are many people (Muslim by birth) in Saudi, iran, wherever that just go through the motions and then don’t give a shit at home. It’s human nature. People are diverse.
a lot of Muslims pray 5 times a day, probably quite a lot don’t and a lot fall in between.
it’s not incumbent on Muslim women to go to jummah, it’s also not very practical in the west , either for men or women.
but there’s more to being a Muslim than the narrow list of things you described.
PingvsPong · 03/03/2024 23:24
It's not, but plenty go anyway.
I'm not Muslim myself but from a Muslim majority country. The definition in a non-majority country like the UK is quite interesting. there aren't many people who are culturally Muslim, like those who are culturally Christian. They go to church twice a year, tick 'Christian' if asked on a census but that's it. You say 'many Muslims don't' pray 5 times a day but in my country most do.
This is just my experience but people who identify as Muslim in the UK IME are usually very religious. If they're not, they don't call themselves Muslims. I have Pakistani friends from Muslim families who drink etc and quite clearly don't identify as such.
I'm Hindu and apart from not eating beef and believing in our Gods I don't do much really. I don't know whether I should continue to call myself as such.
Vielendanke · 03/03/2024 23:14
Yes I don’t drink and I’ve got a health condition that makes long fasting hrs dangerous for me (shorter are hard but ok)
it’s not incumbent on women to go to jummah, surely you know that. I don’t pray 5 times a day, but then so don’t a lot of other Muslims
PingvsPong · 03/03/2024 23:04
So what Muslim things do you do apart from not eating pork (and presumably no alcohol either)?
You don't fast. Or cover your hair. Do you pray 5 times a day? Or at least go to the mosque for Friday prayers?
Vielendanke · 03/03/2024 22:35
There is also a lot of peer reviewed evidence that circumcision is of little to no benefit and can cause harm. Hence why I don’t believe in it being done involuntarily. At the end of the day it’s surgery and none necessary surgery, so I believe the person on whom it is to be performed should consent. It is literally 2024 I cannot believe that the concept of consent to the removal of a part of the body is being debated.
someone else can do a thread about their white MIL. I did a thread on MY experience. I’ve actually not ran down pakistani men, in fact the opposite but it would be disingenuous to say that misogyny doesn’t exist in the community. It does in every community. It just manifests different
its is absolutely NOT human nature to want your child to marry from the same race as you, that’s racism. Imagine if a white person was saying that. It’s deeply problematic
Emeraldcut · 03/03/2024 22:28
Actually there is, and I have posted I think multiple links to prove both point, indeed a simple google search...
As you correctly said most religions are manipulated, so I am glad we both agree as do the vast majority of Muslims that FGM is not part of Islam.
No one is suggesting you accept abuse or that Pakistani families don't have issues. You came on to this forum to give your experience to people who don't have experiences of a White woman marrying a Pakistani man, and not only yours but of others in similar relationships that you know, to assume that it doesn't give readers a biased view and that you initiated that bias view isn't going to get you a pass from women of that community who do know better then the opinion your projecting. Are Asian Muslim women treated wonderfully by all white in laws? You've focussed on a culture when actually it's human nature and you've ignored that while educating the rest of us.
@SeaBlueSky I'm not going to have someone vilify Pakistani Muslim men when they already are vilified under the guise of 'their experience' and ignore the impact it might have on readers. As a vilified minority I do need to distinguish very clearly a) not all Pakistani Muslim men come from such families b) Misogyny and racism exists in all cultures c) It is human nature to want your son to marry from the same race/religion of the family and that needs to be kept in mind when reading this post. In my opinion this post required that clarification, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Vielendanke · 03/03/2024 16:00
There is absolutely no evidence that it is the healthiest option to be circumcised as a male. Especially as a baby, the procedure is done to a baby without anesthetic, that is horrendous. They feel pain, the foreskin isn’t retractable therefore increasing the potential for complications.
sorry but all 4 schools of Sunni thought at one point said female circumcision is a sunnah. Now do I believe it to be part of Islam? NO, I don’t. Also to be clear did they mean type 4 fgm? Also no, they meant type 1, the removal of the clitoral hood. BUT there is precedence in Islamic thought. You may not care what the conservative scholars think but many do. The reason I posted the link from said conservative scholars was to show there is a precedence for circumcision on the cusp of puberty as you mentioned you were keen to know what thought believes that, so I showed you. A simple google will do the same, the shafi thought.
yes white men are awful also, one only needs to read half the threads here to prove that.
you are projecting your odd insecurities onto me here friend as to respecting my husbands family. I vehemently tried to fit in and to be amenable to them but i was fighting a losing battle with (some not all of them). If they treated me kindly then I would do the same, in spades. Tbh I do treat them kindly but that doesn’t mean I get to be verbally abused or spat at (sadly happened) or put up with any other toxic nonsense in the name of respecting family. That’s not respect, it’s abuse
Emeraldcut · 03/03/2024 15:48
A typo? Okay. There's nothing incoherent about giving you're MIL some credit for raising 'an all round great guy'
And we all need to self reflect as we mature, white men are sexist too, domestic violence cases increase after football matches.
I'm past puberty so, I don't need help with it, thank you and I really don't care about what some random 'really conservative' guy says when the vast majority of Muslims around the world agree that 1) male circumcision should be done (and as demonstrated it's the healthier option) and 2 it is by majority of Muslims cultures done something soon after birth which is also the healthier option. A bit more learning around FGM, if it's not too incoherent to understand....https://www.forwarduk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/FGM-DL-Leaflet-2019-Single-Pages-Updated-Branding.pdf
What I have understood you to say is: my hubby's ok (and he' is / has been working on it), but his family is just as described by EDL.
You can justify this opinion as being you're experience, but a maturer person would have realised that if people are querying you're relationship because they don't know any better then it will affect their opinion of all Pakistanis and very frankly there are these kind of families in all races and cultures.
All sons like their mothers respected if they themselves have any respect for their mother. Before belittling them it's only fair to ask yourself what character, responsibility and honoring of relationships have you shown you're husbands family. Now it's my turn to say not all Asian women respect their MILs - and I know that not all white women will think themselves superior and assume they don't need to earn respect of the family they are going into.
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