I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

@Mollscroll

I think the absence of middle aged and old women transitioning is striking and revelatory. Stonewall could get out of schools and go into old people’s homes and talk to all the old ladies about their possible trans status. But they don’t. Why? One group is vulnerable to this ideology and one isn’t.

Oh my gosh. This comment hit me so hard. This really does make sense.

paperscissors you said
I do think, though, that if my daughter’s identity was gender dysphoric trans (as opposed to mentally ill/anorexic), I would want this to be treated in the same way as an eating disorder/ocd type illness would be treated. Both carry levels of delusion (an awful word, but I really can’t think of a softer alternative right now) which shouldn’t be validated.

I agree with this. I see childhood trans identities as an expression of trauma, in a language to suit our culture now. Similar to eating disorders (Glosswitch wrote brilliantly on this). Much about childhood/adolescence can be painful, especially for kids with ASD. I wouldn't want to be a young girl in our current culture.

As the adults we can care for/about trans identifying children but we don't need to buy the ideology. I'm concerned OP that you do, somewhat (you reference trans identities in other cultures without the caveats that historically these have tended to be even more misogynist cultures and that with these identities there is not the pretence of "changing sex"). I think it is OK to separate trans people from trans ideology. Just as we can critique fundamentalist religious ideas without tarring all Christians and Muslims. Just as we can respect Christians and Muslims even if we ourselves are atheist. There are also trans people (adults) who think like this. They tend not to be the trans people who get the media attention though.

I have experience with my (gender non conforming and totally accepted as such) child wishing they could be the opposite sex. There's obviously lots more to it but one of the more painful aspects was helping him understand that, as a male, he was never going to be able to bear children. That was a point I was aware of being at a fork in the road. An easier immediate path to alleviate his pain would have been to tell him in the future anything would be possible, he could have a uterus transplant etc. As a feminist and a person with an interest in early childhood development I simply could not do that. Also I have watched a loved one die slowly at the mercy of the NHS from an illness that was not their fault. I couldn't choose a lifelong medical path. I suspect my son is gay and I also had to confront within myself that my previous positive thoughts on surrogacy didn't stand up to feminist scrutiny.

None of this shit is easy OP. I really respect the fact you are willing to discuss.

I was thinking about the name change thing earlier @Fraida and you saying how sad it made you. It struck me how much power trans identifying children have all of a sudden.

They are able to change their names, wear damaging binders, control how school and their friends and family refer to them, say which toilets and changing rooms they want to use etc. Suddenly, unlike their peers, they are not being told what the rules are and that they must comply with them, they get to dictate them. It must be intoxicating.

It also made me think about anorexia and how much that is about control. Girls who are horrified by their rapidly changing bodies and the associated expectations placed upon them no longer have to starve themselves to get control and attention, they can declare themselves male, and their radius of control is enormous, affecting every single aspect of their lives. And for autistic children, their autism is no longer the main focus, their trans identity becomes the all consuming source of all their pain and trauma.

I would be interested to know if cases of anorexia have declined as trans has become more fashionable.

But I think it's important to distinguish between 'stereotype' meaning the 'girls ought to do this and mustn't do that' bollocks, and the associations we build up through our own experiences, like the 'penises may be used as a weapon' stuff. I'll judge the hell out of people who subscribe to the former, but the latter? I'll stop believing it when they stop showing us the truth of it

Tyro you've articulated something that has been concerning me. There has been some good anti stereotype education going on in schools recently. It has genuinely helped my child. But I'm waiting for it to be turned into a way of serving trans ideology. My guess was that they'll be telling kids it is stereotyping to say "women don't have penises" or stereotyping to even know sex based crime stats.

Brassica I'm inclined to agree.

And for most, this will work just fine and everything will be rosy - except for those unlucky few who learn the fact that 'penis is a weapon' isn't negated by 'woman identity' the hard way.

Sorry this thread is moving faster than I can keep up with! I will answer all your questions I promise just might take some time whilst I dip in and out... bloody work for getting in the way of an interesting conversation

Some observations from me as a parent that I grapple with quite a lot and in part why I started this:

Many of you have picked up on the Stonewall stats and said that these are incorrect. The issue as a parent when you are faced with managing and parenting through this situation is that much in the way of available information is provided by seemingly polarised camps. It’s really hard to find neutral information that considers all the the viewpoints and allows parents to make decisions in a well informed manner.

Another theme that is coming through is that of why don’t you just be an adult and make decisions rather than pandering to what your child wants (paraphrasing obviously!) I would argue from having spoken to many, many parents of trans kids of all ages that that is generally what we do but when you are faced with a child presenting with significant and complex mental health needs stemming in part from gender dysphoria you face a barrier - in fact two barriers - firstly timely and easy access to specialists and secondly picking your way through the information out there. Layered on top of that is fear, all consuming fear of getting it wrong because the stakes are high.

There is a concern that by entering the NHS pathway you are automatically signing your child up for medical intervention and this is simply not the case. I have two close friends whose daughters went to the Tavistock and both had counselling/assessment then decided that having explored the issues that they were not transgender and left the service. Appreciating that anecdote is not the plural of data and this is just what I have personally seen. On one of the support groups I am a member of a recent thread discussed GIDS not providing a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to a child and the family struggling to know what to do next as the child was still distressed.

The cross section of sexuality and gender is a challenge - where does one end and the other start. Are they actually that interwoven. Can you explore one without the others etc etc.

@TyroTerf

On the being accepted when you come out as lesbian so that means homophobia can't be a factor: acceptance by peers is only half the story.

At that age, I knew intellectually what lesbian meant, but thanks to the surrounding culture the associations in my head were very male gaze-y. And I really don't want to be "that thing where two sets of breasts and vaginas perform for other people's dicks".

That association comes from being immersed in our culture. You don't just escape it because your mates think you're grand, y'know?

This is a good point. Similarly I heard a detransitioner (female attracted to females) say that while all the messaging around being gay was acceptance, it came across to her that it was all shallow "being gay is okay" message and that contributed to her wanting to transition.

@Clymene

I was thinking about the name change thing earlier *@Fraida and you saying how sad it made you. It struck me how much power* trans identifying children have all of a sudden.

They are able to change their names, wear damaging binders, control how school and their friends and family refer to them, say which toilets and changing rooms they want to use etc. Suddenly, unlike their peers, they are not being told what the rules are and that they must comply with them, they get to dictate them. It must be intoxicating.

It also made me think about anorexia and how much that is about control. Girls who are horrified by their rapidly changing bodies and the associated expectations placed upon them no longer have to starve themselves to get control and attention, they can declare themselves male, and their radius of control is enormous, affecting every single aspect of their lives. And for autistic children, their autism is no longer the main focus, their trans identity becomes the all consuming source of all their pain and trauma.

I would be interested to know if cases of anorexia have declined as trans has become more fashionable.

There is a correlation between being transgender and having anorexia, the relationship between gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia is well established.

Article about that here: link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10615-020-00758-9 and here www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5775111/

I haven’t checked the research in great depth to be honest I.e. methodology and so on but they both flag some interesting points.

OP you had a figure earlier about the number of GIDS patients that didn't proceed to transition - I'm honestly not being arsey but if you did have the link for that it'd be really interesting. (I always have to look at things in context to properly understand them, hence my annoyance that the Stonewall suicide stats info links to pages that have been moved etc)

@DeaconBoo

OP you had a figure earlier about the number of GIDS patients that didn't proceed to transition - I'm honestly not being arsey but if you did have the link for that it'd be really interesting. (I always have to look at things in context to properly understand them, hence my annoyance that the Stonewall suicide stats info links to pages that have been moved etc)

@DeaconBoo I need to get the source from the CAMHS psychiatrist who showed me the stats, can I get back to you on that?

@Clymene

I was thinking about the name change thing earlier *@Fraida and you saying how sad it made you. It struck me how much power* trans identifying children have all of a sudden.

They are able to change their names, wear damaging binders, control how school and their friends and family refer to them, say which toilets and changing rooms they want to use etc. Suddenly, unlike their peers, they are not being told what the rules are and that they must comply with them, they get to dictate them. It must be intoxicating.

It also made me think about anorexia and how much that is about control. Girls who are horrified by their rapidly changing bodies and the associated expectations placed upon them no longer have to starve themselves to get control and attention, they can declare themselves male, and their radius of control is enormous, affecting every single aspect of their lives. And for autistic children, their autism is no longer the main focus, their trans identity becomes the all consuming source of all their pain and trauma.

I would be interested to know if cases of anorexia have declined as trans has become more fashionable.

Watch Abigail Shrier's interview with Joe Rogan on youtube, she talks about this and I think she even points out the stats on declining cases of anorexia

@TyroTerf

Well that depends what you mean by "buy into". The shit about what it means to be female is incorporated into the function of the human mind through experience. You can accept intellectually that they're bollocks, but reprogramming the brain takes effort. Most people can do it well enough and easily enough. Some people find it harder because psychological issues rooted in your experience as a sexed body get in the way.

The internalised misogyny is all self-directed. It sometimes remains even after you reject the other-directed stereotypes and get your head round the 'we're all human' part.

It's not psychologically healthy, because self-revulsion and -aversion never are. Therapy helps.

I hear that. I did add, but then deleted, in my post that I could understand believing 'I'm not a stereotype unlike everyone else' while in one's teens but thought that after that people become less solipsistic and do start to see how meaningless a lot of stereotypes are. However, I do see that this has possibly become a LOT harder in the last 10 years or so, when exaggeration is clickbait is representation.

I think I'm operating under the assumption that 'coming out as trans' is far more of an upheaval, emotionally taxing, self-introspecting, etc than the reprogramming you describe - but - this might not be the case and finding yourself identifying with something that is currently everywhere may actually be 'easier' in some ways (I don't mean that as flippantly as it sounds - I mean the answers are presented as being all there packaged for you and you don't need to interrogate your own biases).

I need to get the source from the CAMHS psychiatrist who showed me the stats, can I get back to you on that?
Of course, and thanks.

@DeaconBoo

I guess like many of you I thought in a very binary and biological way maybe - you are born with male or female body parts and that is that nothing to see let’s move on. Everything else is about gender expression or cultural expectations. But this has made me think about the brain and the wiring of the brain and how this defines gender too. Neuroscience fascinates me and thus I’m rethinking and relearning what gender means.

Right, so can you give an example of something specific you previously thought that you have now changed your mind on?

Most people on the Feminism board wouldn't agree that one's biological sex is 'nothing to see, move on' - it's the basis for countless inequalities and oppression! Can you expand a bit more on that?

Secondly, you've talked a lot about your son's acute gender dysphoria. Are you of the opinion that this gender dysphoria is necessary to be transgender, or can you be just as valid a transgender person with absolutely no gender dysphoria at all?

@DeaconBoo realised I missed this message. Been reading a lot about the transgender brain and about the possibility that the parts of the brain responsible for processing our body perception may function differently in trans people, for example. Also the impact of hormones on the brain too.

With regards to your second point - absolutely I don’t for one minute believe that the ownership of a female body hasn’t led to discrimination and oppression! That is the bigger picture but day to day I wouldn’t want my children to feel that their sex has to define them or limit what they have to do... does that make more sense?

Posting late at night is probably not a good idea!

It’s really hard to find neutral information that considers all the the viewpoints and allows parents to make decisions in a well informed manner.

It’s really not hard to find. The trouble is, such material has been deemed transphobic because it doesn’t follow the party line that TWAW and puberty blockers are harmless.
Some of the most thoughtful and well researched articles have been declared to contain vile transphobia simply because the gender cult relies on denial of facts.

The cross section of sexuality and gender is a challenge - where does one end and the other start.

When you start to see that gender isn’t real, it relies heavily on patriarchal, sexist stereotypes, you can detach from gender being important at all.
Our bodies are sexed, beyond that everyone should be encouraged to be who they are and ignore harmful stereotypes. We shouldn’t be ignoring the material reality though. No one can opt out of being female, no one should be told that this is a possibility.

Deacon before you come out to others, you come out to yourself. It's that part that I refer to when I'm talking about reprogramming - the reframing until it's comfortable in your own head.

(I'm just inclined to use computer-language because I have dissociation issues in the field of emotional wossnames too.)

On one of the support groups I am a member of a recent thread discussed GIDS not providing a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to a child and the family struggling to know what to do next as the child was still distressed.

As we always say to parents of children at our school who are desperate for a diagnosis of ASD or ADHD for their child, having the diagnosis will not change the fact that you still have to manage the behaviour. If your child is distressed, a diagnosis may explain part of the reason why, but on its own won’t alleviate the distress, unless it’s more frustration at not being able to label something, rather than an actual mental health problem.

He presents as male
I can pretty much guarantee that while your child may wear masculine clothing, society as a whole will be able to work out that they are a girl.

@RAOK

Have the school been supportive? Was it a shock when he told you? How does he cope with periods and having breasts? Does he have a partner? How did he choose his name and did you adjust to calling him that straight away? Does he seem happier now? Do you worry more about his future?

Lots of good stuff here!

Yes school have been supportive, made and suggested adjustments but to be honest nothing specific was needed.

Not a shock at all really, wasn’t a rapid onset as it were more of a slowly emerging situation.

Periods he manages, doesn’t like them but is very stoical about it. Breasts are a different story altogether, and have been the cause of a lot of distress. Fortunately his body shape is quite androgynous so finds it easier to mask what lies under his clothes.

He’s had a girlfriend since January and had previous girlfriends too.

He asked ask to choose his name which we did, took a little way to adjust always remember the new name but now it is not a problem and I rarely slip up.

He does seem happier for sure, the specialist input is definitely helping.

Yes I worry more but for now trying to focus on what we can do in the here and now.

This is such an important thread. My greatest sorrow is that the painting of the gender critical position as "transphobic" has driven a wedge between both the children caught up in this and also their parents - being too terrified to explore the issues because of the threats made that they are bigoted and unsympathetic if they challenge in any way.
Most of us understand about tough love, being a critical friend and maintaining boundaries for children. Yet these children are being swept up in front of our eyes and we are powerless to offer sympathy / support / love to them or their parents along with a critical eye / questioning what is happening, because #nodebate & anything other than uncritical affirmation is "literal violence".
Some of these questions are tough Fraida but I hope you're also finding this as helpful to explore as others are?

@Fraida - the Transgender Trend assessment of the Stonewall stats that I and several others have linked to is a factual and neutral assessment of the study. I suggest you read it if you haven't already. Incidentally, Stephanie Davies-Arai who is behind Transgender Trend, was shortlisted for the John Maddox prize for her sense around science.

GIDS failing to diagnose children with dysphoria suggests to me that there are children who are grasping at a trans identity as a way of managing other areas of distress and trauma in their lives.

My teenager has been taught in PHSE at school that the brain doesn't mature until 25. I wish all schools taught this

If the breasts are a significant cause of distress (rather than periods, having a vagina, not having a penis) then that suggests to me the issue is more around struggling with feeling womanly/sexualised rather than having a "wrong body map".

Has your child been exposed to pornography? Have you ever spoken about this?

Has your child been exposed to pornography?

Sorry, but I lol'd at that. They're all exposed to pornographic imagery; it's mainstream!

Most desistance is at or after puberty by the way and 8 is the age at which children start to learn about the changes that are coming.
So ages 8-16 may not be rapid onset but it's not a sign of persistence into full adult life. Maybe age 30 would be.
So, lesbian, ASD, doesn't like her breasts being stared at. Huge red flags for reacting to the hell that is teenage girlhood by opting out.