I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

Do you as a family receive counselling or just your son?

@twoHopes

If the breasts are a significant cause of distress (rather than periods, having a vagina, not having a penis) then that suggests to me the issue is more around struggling with feeling womanly/sexualised rather than having a "wrong body map".

Has your child been exposed to pornography? Have you ever spoken about this?

I’m not sure that it’s the being stared at part that is the issue, prior to even coming out as trans and talking about it in an open way he was always mistaken for a boy. He has a very small chest (my husband side are all lean and skinny!) and even in more fitted clothes they are not obvious. He’s never experienced the unwanted attention that some of his teenage peers have experienced. For example a close friend of mine has a teenage girl the same age who developed early, they went to Italy on holiday when she was 13 and the poor girl had an awful time with leering.

For my son his dislike is just the fact that they are there and it doesn’t feel like they should be, I guess like if you woke up one morning with a penis it would feel unnatural and alien as it doesn’t relate to your sex.

Yes we talk about pornography and the unnatural representation of both sexy and women in it including how lesbians are fetishised and anal sex is seen as the norm. In terms of watching pornography or having access to pornographic images then no, not something we have on in the background whilst eating dinner or on a coffee table!

@Audreyseyebrows

Do you as a family receive counselling or just your son?

Yes we asked for family therapy, in fact begged for it, after five months it was provided by CAMHS.

[quote Clymene]@Fraida - the Transgender Trend assessment of the Stonewall stats that I and several others have linked to is a factual and neutral assessment of the study. I suggest you read it if you haven't already. Incidentally, Stephanie Davies-Arai who is behind Transgender Trend, was shortlisted for the John Maddox prize for her sense around science.

GIDS failing to diagnose children with dysphoria suggests to me that there are children who are grasping at a trans identity as a way of managing other areas of distress and trauma in their lives.

My teenager has been taught in PHSE at school that the brain doesn't mature until 25. I wish all schools taught this[/quote]
I think it also demonstrates that the Tavi is not blindly pushing kids down a route that is not appropriate for them and that the assessment and diagnostic process is pretty robust.

@Fraida thank you! I’ve been involved in working with families in similar situations and I’m in awe of the support that I see within the family. I’m aware that this is not always the case but I think you sound like a really lovely family.

@drspouse

He presents as male I can pretty much guarantee that while your child may wear masculine clothing, society as a whole will be able to work out that they are a girl.

So far this hasn’t happened as he is luckily very androgynous and always has been. Definite advantages to being very slim and non curvy!

@PaperScissorsRock

It’s really hard to find neutral information that considers all the the viewpoints and allows parents to make decisions in a well informed manner.

It’s really not hard to find. The trouble is, such material has been deemed transphobic because it doesn’t follow the party line that TWAW and puberty blockers are harmless.
Some of the most thoughtful and well researched articles have been declared to contain vile transphobia simply because the gender cult relies on denial of facts.

The cross section of sexuality and gender is a challenge - where does one end and the other start.

When you start to see that gender isn’t real, it relies heavily on patriarchal, sexist stereotypes, you can detach from gender being important at all.
Our bodies are sexed, beyond that everyone should be encouraged to be who they are and ignore harmful stereotypes. We shouldn’t be ignoring the material reality though. No one can opt out of being female, no one should be told that this is a possibility.

Maybe not hard to find perhaps but certainly difficult to know what information to trust. It involves research abilities seen in a postgraduate level student at times! You firstly need to look at the source then establish the biases and leanings of the source, then establish how the research was undertaken and whether the study was valid and so on and so on.

This is a very emotive subject from both trans and anti trans narrative people, peering through all those layers of emotion and establishing raw facts is not easy when you are dealing with an incredibly emotive situation yourself.

It’s very easy when you have a vested interest in an area to say well the information is there in black and white but far less easy when you are coming from a position of ignorance.

Hi OP, I've not read the whole thread so I'll avoid asking questions for fear of repeating anyone but all I can say is I wish you the best of luck. I think irrespective of social / political beliefs involving the transgender debate, your son needed help and you're providing that for him so a big kudos to you ❤️ I truly hope he's happy and will be able to access any support he needs in the future (and I hope you've got a good support system running as well).

Good luck, thoughts and prayers x

For the pregnancy, it means being comfortable with 'this body that is mine' doing 'biologically natural breeding function' but freaking out when 'mummies' associations are brought in.

But I think most people know that 'mummies' associations are a pack of nonsense. I am increasingly thinking that trans people might be the most gendered of all of us. They've come to see some things as to intimately connected that they don't know how else to separate them. My husband has been a stay at home parent whilst I've supported us. This does not make me less of a mum in any meaningful sense because there is no meaningful sense of what a mum is other than the person who gestated the child or a biological female who adopts one no?

When you’re using “trans and anti trans” it’s difficult to take this seriously.
Assuming that the work feminists are currently undertaking is anti trans rather than protecting women’s rights and safeguarding children is a very TRA take on this.

I have seen very few feminists show actual transphobic behaviour. I have seen many of those women called out and threatened for their rational approach.

I am increasingly thinking that trans people are the most gendered of all of us.

I would agree with that assessment. With the caveat that 'gender' needs to be understood in terms of an ongoing process of the mind's developing in response to the individual experience of embodied existence in a sexually-dimorphic world.

A genderising force, if you like. Or the psychic blowtorch of sex-specific socialisation, if you prefer. Whatever we call it, we're talking about the same thing.

Using the definitions "trans and anti trans" is so unhelpful and damaging to the conversation in general.

I appreciate you've been very open and shared your thoughts kindly and honestly but I think it's important you consider how the fact you chose that wording is indicative of the fact you are feeling that it's necessary to "choose sides" which is a very dangerous position to have when a child's long-term wellbeing is on the line.

It feels like you know that saying something that isn't fully Stonewall / Tavi approved means you'll be labelled 'anti trans' or transphobic by some people which is influencing your decision making hugely. Arguably to the detriment of those directly involved, your family.

But your child has not just woken up with this genitalia - they've been this way since the womb! If it were me, I'd be curious about what was causing this sudden sense of alienation from the body they've always had. It sounds like they haven't even had the dramatic physical changes some girls experience. I mean, we all feel weird about puberty to a greater or lesser extent, at that age, but their reaction is so extreme there's a mystery there as to why. Or could it just be another manifestation of her poor mental health? Like anorexia almost always is?

For my son his dislike is just the fact that they are there and it doesn’t feel like they should be, I guess like if you woke up one morning with a penis it would feel unnatural and alien as it doesn’t relate to your sex

I think loads of women feel like that. I've certainly spent well over 30 years feeling that they're an alien body part that I can't bear the feel of or the look of.

I hate them with a passion. If I woke in the morning and they were gone I'd be delighted.

@BrassicaRabbit

paperscissors you said I do think, though, that if my daughter’s identity was gender dysphoric trans (as opposed to mentally ill/anorexic), I would want this to be treated in the same way as an eating disorder/ocd type illness would be treated. Both carry levels of delusion (an awful word, but I really can’t think of a softer alternative right now) which shouldn’t be validated.

I agree with this. I see childhood trans identities as an expression of trauma, in a language to suit our culture now. Similar to eating disorders (Glosswitch wrote brilliantly on this). Much about childhood/adolescence can be painful, especially for kids with ASD. I wouldn't want to be a young girl in our current culture.

As the adults we can care for/about trans identifying children but we don't need to buy the ideology. I'm concerned OP that you do, somewhat (you reference trans identities in other cultures without the caveats that historically these have tended to be even more misogynist cultures and that with these identities there is not the pretence of "changing sex"). I think it is OK to separate trans people from trans ideology. Just as we can critique fundamentalist religious ideas without tarring all Christians and Muslims. Just as we can respect Christians and Muslims even if we ourselves are atheist. There are also trans people (adults) who think like this. They tend not to be the trans people who get the media attention though.

I have experience with my (gender non conforming and totally accepted as such) child wishing they could be the opposite sex. There's obviously lots more to it but one of the more painful aspects was helping him understand that, as a male, he was never going to be able to bear children. That was a point I was aware of being at a fork in the road. An easier immediate path to alleviate his pain would have been to tell him in the future anything would be possible, he could have a uterus transplant etc. As a feminist and a person with an interest in early childhood development I simply could not do that. Also I have watched a loved one die slowly at the mercy of the NHS from an illness that was not their fault. I couldn't choose a lifelong medical path. I suspect my son is gay and I also had to confront within myself that my previous positive thoughts on surrogacy didn't stand up to feminist scrutiny.

None of this shit is easy OP. I really respect the fact you are willing to discuss.

I agree to a certain extent that being supportive doesn’t mean being complicit in deception. I think my son would be offended if I talked about the possibility of one day having a penis transplant and some means of producing sperm. I mean yes maybe this could happen one day but that’s not the case right now so, yes, being realistic and managing expectations around what is possible right now is important.

I feel my job as a mother/parent is to help him through the pain and not around it which does mean helping him understand what is possible and the repercussions of that (actual and potential) - all the while keeping his hopes, desires and options open in the future. So having navigated this pathway and provided all the support and input that it is possible to access if he still wishes to transition then I will of course support him in that.

@RuffleCrow

But your child has not just woken up with this genitalia - they've been this way since the womb! If it were me, I'd be curious about what was causing this sudden sense of alienation from the body they've always had. It sounds like they haven't even had the dramatic physical changes some girls experience. I mean, we all feel weird about puberty to a greater or lesser extent, at that age, but their reaction is so extreme there's a mystery there as to why. Or could it just be another manifestation of her poor mental health? Like anorexia almost always is?

But it’s not a sudden sense of alienation it’s been there for a very long time. You’ve identified that it is mystifying bearing in mind he isn’t a voluptuous girl, therefore does this therefore not provide ammunition for the argument that he is male?

The mental health argument is also a bit chicken and egg, which came first the decline in mental health which then caused the feelings or dysphoria or did the dysphoria cause the decline in mental health. The two are very much interwoven.

I have not as yet met any trans teens that do not have poor mental health. Part of this is the feelings about their own physical presentation and body parts and the other part is the attitudes of other people. It can’t be denied that trans kids are subject to abuse (physical and emotional) and bullying which is known to lead to poor mental health.

I would argue that I have seen a positive improvement in his mental health since presenting as male, changing names and pronouns etc. Things are by no way perfect but there is a lightness that wasn’t there previously and certainly accessing specialist gender healthcare is making a difference.

@Fraida thanks for your openness and honesty.

I know how hard this is as we are in the same place. My kid is 16.5 and has been adamant about being "a boy" for 2.5 years now.

My kid is autistic, attracted to girls and also looks quite masculine. I sort of saw this coming but could nothing to stop it. I know she is desperately uncomfortable with her body and I know she doesn't want to be seen as male BUT I just don't believe in gender identity as a concrete thing. Is it not expectations, stereotypes, traditions, judgements etc etc? These things, like it or not, have a massive impact on a young person.

My belief for what its worth is that this discomfort, the feeling of being on the outside that comes with autism and the years of being mistaken for a boy are bound to have an impact.

What I do not believe is that the way to treat all of this is by chemically and surgically altering a healthy body.

I may not be able to stop my kid doing that and tbh at the moment I feel she's almost being pushed closer to it by professionals and I have no idea how I will cope if it happens.

I also agree that looking at things as trans or anti-trans is unhelpful as it closes things off which might help you (and your kid). This labelling anything other than total affirmation and celebration as anti-trans is, I believe, one reason this movement has affected so many of our kids.

As a parent it is bloody difficult whichever approach you take. FOr me the thing I come back to time and again is that left alone around 80+% of kids desist with time. Give kids blockers and 98% progress to cross-sex hormones.

Good luck to you and your family.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Using the definitions "trans and anti trans" is so unhelpful and damaging to the conversation in general.

I appreciate you've been very open and shared your thoughts kindly and honestly but I think it's important you consider how the fact you chose that wording is indicative of the fact you are feeling that it's necessary to "choose sides" which is a very dangerous position to have when a child's long-term wellbeing is on the line.

It feels like you know that saying something that isn't fully Stonewall / Tavi approved means you'll be labelled 'anti trans' or transphobic by some people which is influencing your decision making hugely. Arguably to the detriment of those directly involved, your family.

I don’t mean to cause offence and I’m really not trying to be controversial or derail what is a useful conversation.

What it feels like as a parent who comes in with very little knowledge is that you are walking into a boxing match that you didn’t know you were attending. I don’t want to take sides, I want to know that the information I am reading is evidence based and factually correct rather than feeling that one side or the other is forcing an agenda (not saying that is happening here but it can feel like that). After all the long term well being of my child is at stake and I need to make the right choices using accurate information.

[quote GatherlyGal]@Fraida thanks for your openness and honesty.

I know how hard this is as we are in the same place. My kid is 16.5 and has been adamant about being "a boy" for 2.5 years now.

My kid is autistic, attracted to girls and also looks quite masculine. I sort of saw this coming but could nothing to stop it. I know she is desperately uncomfortable with her body and I know she doesn't want to be seen as male BUT I just don't believe in gender identity as a concrete thing. Is it not expectations, stereotypes, traditions, judgements etc etc? These things, like it or not, have a massive impact on a young person.

My belief for what its worth is that this discomfort, the feeling of being on the outside that comes with autism and the years of being mistaken for a boy are bound to have an impact.

What I do not believe is that the way to treat all of this is by chemically and surgically altering a healthy body.

I may not be able to stop my kid doing that and tbh at the moment I feel she's almost being pushed closer to it by professionals and I have no idea how I will cope if it happens.

I also agree that looking at things as trans or anti-trans is unhelpful as it closes things off which might help you (and your kid). This labelling anything other than total affirmation and celebration as anti-trans is, I believe, one reason this movement has affected so many of our kids.

As a parent it is bloody difficult whichever approach you take. FOr me the thing I come back to time and again is that left alone around 80+% of kids desist with time. Give kids blockers and 98% progress to cross-sex hormones.

Good luck to you and your family.[/quote]
Thank you, I appreciate your input. It is bloody difficult and as everyone’s situation is slightly different makes it even more challenging!

Just wanted to offer some support and say that not everyone on mumsnet hates trans people, despite what this thread may show. @Fraida, hope your family is doing well!!

I second that @TheLovleyChebbyMcGee.

If it's easier for you to think of your female child as inexplicably and uncientifically male (which is the only way of being male) than it is for you to consider a holistic approach to their mental health (which would include gender dysphoria as that's recognised as being a mental health problem by the NHS) then I wonder if a part of you isn't secretly hoping the trans thing is a magic bullet? All too often when we see a "trans kid" there's actually a parent in the wings who has a reason for wanting to see their child that way.

Fraida, I apologise if this comes off as aggressive, but you seem very convinced that your child hasn't been sexually harassed after puberty and that the discomfort with breasts must be an organic internal thing. Even if your child is home-schooled, and you think you're there all the time, you are not in their head.

First of all, personal sexual harassment, being treated just slightly differently? It's all tiny microaggressions. The person experiencing it often can't put her finger on it, in any individual incident, but as you grow up, you are, at some level, aware you're not treated the way you used to be.

Secondly, societal messaging fetishises breasts. Sometimes it is blatant (boy in GCSE English bringing in a copy of the Sun and making comments about the page 3 model's breasts); sometimes it is more subtle. Ads, television shows, and films with gratuitous lingering cleavage shots. Magazine covers, film billboards, comic book portrayals of female superheroes, newspaper articles referring to female politicians "flaunting their assets". It goes on. Your child is coming into adulthood, and experiencing all these little injustices with fresh eyes.

Women's breasts simply aren't treated or regarded in the way an elbow is, and why wouldn't an adolescent have picked up on it? Why wouldn't she feel repulsed at the idea of that fetishising being applied to her?

@TheLovleyChebbyMcGee and @berrygirlie questioning the best way to help and support a troubled teenager is not "hating trans people".

This what I was talking about when I said anything other than total affirmation and celebration is somehow "anti-trans".

If I query whether medical transition is the right thing for my kid does that make me anti-trans??

A genderising force, if you like. Or the psychic blowtorch of sex-specific socialisation, if you prefer. Whatever we call it, we're talking about the same thing.

I agree and this suggests that a much more appropriate course of action might be to change the alienating socialization. I do wonder too if it would be helpful to help young people, esp if they have ASD and will find flexible thought more tricky, to understand what gender can mean and to understand that - for want of a better way to put it - the problem may be in how they are understanding gender. That's not to blame them, there is so much nonsense spouted about gender it's not surprising. Should we not be debating that more rather than assuming there is any accepted definition of gender? Especially as that is one rock of the foundation which leads to some young people enduring multiple painful and risky surgeries in a bid to find some comfort and reprieve from their distress?