I’m a feminist with a trans son AMA

[Fraida]

I’m a long-standing member of MN (since 2006 when my eldest child was born) but have named changed more recently!

So I have a 14 year old who is FTM trans person and two other younger children. My son came out officially as trans earlier this year but has been exploring his gender identity since he was about eight. This has been an interesting journey for us all as DH and I have always prided ourselves on allowing all of our children to be individuals and trying to help them not get sucked into cultural norms from a gender perspective I.e. a saying in our house is there is no such thing as boys things and girls things just things Like what you like and don’t get bogged down by what society might expect of you. For a while my middle child - a boy - had the longest hair in the house and loves horse riding both things typically associated with girls, for example.

With DS1 coming out as male I have had to rethink and relearn many of my own beliefs about gender and the whole transitioning process as Ill gladly admit I did have preconceived ideas and concerns about, for example, any gender specialists going down the route of affirmation rather than assessment as well as concerns about medication being offered too quickly. However in our experience so far this hasn’t been the case and there seems to be many more barriers and much more in the way of caution than I anticipated.

I will say however that the overwhelming negative impact on his mental health has been devastating for us all to watch with a number of suicide attempts (not uncommon) and chronic anxiety, to say the least. I do feel that whatever your views are on gender health care for children it cannot be right that psychological support and help is not more widespread and readily available.

Anyways I’m being brave because I fundamentally believe that dialogue is important and active listening in order to truly hear what opposing views are is really important in such a sensitive area. So here I am, happy to debate and answer questions but please don’t insult me as I am a sensitive human at the end of the computer

And I’m afraid the evidence suggests quite the opposite. Transitioned men tend to retain the typical behaviours of men including most importantly the propensity to commit sex crimes. Not all men etc etc. But this is almost never a female crime including among transitioned women. It seems that if there is a determining factor it’s sex. Not gender, mind feel, Dysphoria or anything else.

The only other option is that it’s driven by socialisation which could be the case but again this won’t change on transitioning.

There are people who have true dysphoria. My view (and the view of mainstream psychiatry) is that if they want to transition, this is the best treatment for them. This doesn't mean we all have to subscribe to the view that they are 100% fundamentally the other sex, it just means they are changing the way they present themselves. As a society, we could put restrictions on them accessing things like toilets and rape crisis centres, without tearing down the whole idea of transition.

The problem is, that there are now a lot of people identifying as transgender, who do not have true dysphoria. Working out who really has it can be quite difficult and we don't know what the best treatment is for people who don't have it. Another problem is that a lot of activists insist that actually, we do all have to subscribe to the idea that it is possible to change sex. This is the totalitarian bit.

@Janeteapot

I really agree with this. The idea of transitioning horrifies me no more than what I see a lot of young people doing to their bodies in the name of beauty. The fact that I think they are paying money to cause themselves pain and look a bit odd (by my judgement) does not mean they should not do it as it is not for me to control others. But a man having breast implants and their penis made into something which looks a bit like a vagina does not make them a woman and to say it does means that we are not really holding in mind the experiences of biological women. Can a member of a privileged group really self identify as a marginalised group without doing damage to the marginalised group? Personally I don't think so. This is not transphobia though as it does not create a context which makes any form of trans bullying OK.

but we are fighting a system that is scared to help us help our children because it doesn’t want to upset either gender critical groups or trans rights groups. The system is paralysed as a result and distressed youngsters are paying the price.

If you think gender critical feminists have anything like the reach and influence (not to mention funding) that transactivists have, you’re mistaken. That’s why when we do talk about our concerns around safeguarding children we are very frequently shut down, sacked, threatened with violence etc.

It is very much not a level playing field.

@FamilyOfAliens

but we are fighting a system that is scared to help us help our children because it doesn’t want to upset either gender critical groups or trans rights groups. The system is paralysed as a result and distressed youngsters are paying the price.

If you think gender critical feminists have anything like the reach and influence (not to mention funding) that transactivists have, you’re mistaken. That’s why when we do talk about our concerns around safeguarding children we are very frequently shut down, sacked, threatened with violence etc.

It is very much not a level playing field.

Yes, my experience has shown me no one gives a shit about upsetting gender critics. The opposite in fact. Supporters of trans ideology relish it.

I agree OP, that when gender ideology barges its way into your own home and squats in the corner, things like who uses which bathroom are not your first concern.

@FamilyOfAliens

but we are fighting a system that is scared to help us help our children because it doesn’t want to upset either gender critical groups or trans rights groups. The system is paralysed as a result and distressed youngsters are paying the price.

If you think gender critical feminists have anything like the reach and influence (not to mention funding) that transactivists have, you’re mistaken. That’s why when we do talk about our concerns around safeguarding children we are very frequently shut down, sacked, threatened with violence etc.

It is very much not a level playing field.

I can’t really comment to be honest because I’ve not had masses of experience with either group.. all I know is that families feel like they are caught in the middle.

It does however strike me that actually everyone wants the same thing when it comes to trans kids - for children’s rights to be protected just how this is achieved is different. This is probably reductionist but one side says we are not protecting our children by pumping them full of hormones that could reduce life span and the other says we are not protecting our children by not allowing them timely access to potential life saving treatment. To me it seems like the different sides of the same coin.

What I want for my child is a bit of both - timely access to trans health care not to immediately start hormone treatments but to allow them to be assessed and cared for psychologically in the first instance. As someone has just said if they are experiencing true dysphoria then subsequent medical treatment can then be provided.

I try not to get too embroiled in the debates going on because it’s too close to home in some ways and I’m not sure I can be objectively neutral at this point - mummy tiger is fighting for the survival of her cub!

Where is the common ground and productive discourse going on?

@Stellwagen
Yes this....

“ I agree OP, that when gender ideology barges its way into your own home and squats in the corner, things like who uses which bathroom are not your first concern.”

@Fraida I feel for you. In your situation I would struggle to know what to do for right or wrong to support my child.

There’s not many issues I struggle to understand and form an option on, but support for trans young people is one.

@Fraida - sex matters because women are discriminated against because of our sex. You mentioned period poverty earlier but it's not just that, it's FGM, rape, single sex spaces, sports, maternity and breastfeeding, pay discrimination etc etc.

I remember reading a very distressing account of a trans man who was raped. Their identity didn't matter to their rapist.

I think gender is hugely constrictive and ironically, in their efforts to escape gender norms, many of today's youth are creating ever smaller boxes to cram themselves into, none of which seem to fit properly, so they are always looking for the next tiny box.

I'm sorry if my criticism of social media upset you. I don't advocate banning, I advocate control which is a different thing.

Safeguarding is a real issue and we all need to be vigilant as parents, particularly those of us with autistic children.

As a feminist, if my male child wished to use female facilities, I would not and could not in all conscience support that. More widely, I don't always put my children's desires above the good of general society. I find that disturbingly individualistic and it's not the way I want to raise my children.

I’m not sure I know what you mean if categorising by anything other than physical sex is being sexist?

I mean, we categorise people by sex where their sexed bodies are relevant. Sports or medicine for example. Safeguarding (for example prisons), female bodies are vulnerable to male bodies, and even if both parties are cooperative mixing them carries risk of pregnancy.

For what activity is brain-sex an appropriate categorisation and why for that activity is it necessary to segregate at all and not just have mixed sexes? I.e. there has to be a reason to segregate otherwise you're just being sexist. What difference in ability or understanding or resulting actions ever makes sexed brains an appropriate split?

[quote Lightsontbut]@Janeteapot

I really agree with this. The idea of transitioning horrifies me no more than what I see a lot of young people doing to their bodies in the name of beauty. The fact that I think they are paying money to cause themselves pain and look a bit odd (by my judgement) does not mean they should not do it as it is not for me to control others. But a man having breast implants and their penis made into something which looks a bit like a vagina does not make them a woman and to say it does means that we are not really holding in mind the experiences of biological women. Can a member of a privileged group really self identify as a marginalised group without doing damage to the marginalised group? Personally I don't think so. This is not transphobia though as it does not create a context which makes any form of trans bullying OK.[/quote]
Doesn’t a member of a privileged group automatically become a member of a marginalised group when they transition though? I think trans people would fiercely argue that they are also part of a minority group that feels they have few rights. I know my son feels he has been relegated to a second class citizen at times

@Janeteapot

There are people who have true dysphoria. My view (and the view of mainstream psychiatry) is that if they want to transition, this is the best treatment for them. This doesn't mean we all have to subscribe to the view that they are 100% fundamentally the other sex, it just means they are changing the way they present themselves. As a society, we could put restrictions on them accessing things like toilets and rape crisis centres, without tearing down the whole idea of transition.

The problem is, that there are now a lot of people identifying as transgender, who do not have true dysphoria. Working out who really has it can be quite difficult and we don't know what the best treatment is for people who don't have it. Another problem is that a lot of activists insist that actually, we do all have to subscribe to the idea that it is possible to change sex. This is the totalitarian bit.

Thanks for this comment. It helps to read a more middle road view:

@Janeteapot

There are people who have true dysphoria. My view (and the view of mainstream psychiatry) is that if they want to transition, this is the best treatment for them. This doesn't mean we all have to subscribe to the view that they are 100% fundamentally the other sex, it just means they are changing the way they present themselves. As a society, we could put restrictions on them accessing things like toilets and rape crisis centres, without tearing down the whole idea of transition.

The problem is, that there are now a lot of people identifying as transgender, who do not have true dysphoria. Working out who really has it can be quite difficult and we don't know what the best treatment is for people who don't have it. Another problem is that a lot of activists insist that actually, we do all have to subscribe to the idea that it is possible to change sex. This is the totalitarian bit.

You see this is interesting about providing additional spaces for trans people... so at my work new gender neutral toilets were provided in addition to single sex ones and disabled loos. Several people were vocal about how this was ridiculous and too ‘woke’. So this makes me feel like some people think trans people shouldn’t exist at all and that is problematic and transphobic. I appreciate that has not been said here but we do come up against those attitudes.

Personally I’m not bothered where I have a wee but I know that is me and my opinion and others feel very differently. I am nervous about DS using the men’s toilets but so far he’s not had any problems.

Also how do we know that not everyone who is transgender has dysphoria and so you have to feel distress at being ‘in the wrong body’ (I know many of you don’t like this phrase but I’m trying to get my thoughts out in a clear way). Do you have to feel acute distress to have gender dysphoria - I can only go on our immediate experiences with DS who does experience deep distress but it would be wrong of me to assume his experience is replicated in every trans person.

[quote Clymene]@Fraida - sex matters because women are discriminated against because of our sex. You mentioned period poverty earlier but it's not just that, it's FGM, rape, single sex spaces, sports, maternity and breastfeeding, pay discrimination etc etc.

I remember reading a very distressing account of a trans man who was raped. Their identity didn't matter to their rapist.

I think gender is hugely constrictive and ironically, in their efforts to escape gender norms, many of today's youth are creating ever smaller boxes to cram themselves into, none of which seem to fit properly, so they are always looking for the next tiny box.

I'm sorry if my criticism of social media upset you. I don't advocate banning, I advocate control which is a different thing.

Safeguarding is a real issue and we all need to be vigilant as parents, particularly those of us with autistic children.

As a feminist, if my male child wished to use female facilities, I would not and could not in all conscience support that. More widely, I don't always put my children's desires above the good of general society. I find that disturbingly individualistic and it's not the way I want to raise my children.[/quote]
I appreciate your apology that I you, you hit a very raw spot as I’ve seen the very worst outcome of social media.

Just in reference to your point about being individualistic. I agree that we should raise our children to be outward looking but when you are fighting to access treatment and are wading through ‘noise’ on the internet to find useful sources you don’t have the energy to stop and think how will my actions impact on society as a whole. If we knew that we could access particularly specialist psychological support quickly we would not have to be focussing all out energies on managing a crisis situation and thus be able to be more outward looking. Does that make sense?

I am nervous about DS using the men’s toilets but so far he’s not had any problems.

If you're nervous of DS using men's toilets, surely you can understand why many women and girls would be nervous about using toilets that are no longer single sex?

Doesn’t a member of a privileged group automatically become a member of a marginalised group when they transition though?

No, they don’t because by that definition it should be possible for a girl to identify out of being vulnerable to FGM and a woman to rape.

We cannot detransition out of our sex class.

@youvegottenminuteslynn

I am nervous about DS using the men’s toilets but so far he’s not had any problems.

If you're nervous of DS using men's toilets, surely you can understand why many women and girls would be nervous about using toilets that are no longer single sex?

Yes I can understand that, I’m not sure if I have given the impression otherwise.

I’ve just said that there seems to be this black and white view in some quarters that trans women should use the gents and that is that but when gender neutral toilets are provided then that is deemed to be pandering to the trans community. Yet it is a solution and perhaps a compromise.

My fear for DS in toilets is not that he will be attacked because he is biologically female but because someone realises he is trans and attacks him for that

@Fraida. We know that not everyone who IDs as transgender has dysphoria, because the definition of 'transgender' has culturally broadened to include cross-dressers and people who are gender fluid. My feeling is that this can make life more difficult for people with dysphoria because there is less understanding of how acute their distress can be.

I confess I get frustrated by the focus on whether brains are sexed and whether there's a biological basis.

Of course there is a biological basis. That basis is: having XX chromosomes versus having XY.

That's the biological, genetic root of sexual dimorphism. Identities develop within the context of the sexed body. That's it.

The focus on biological causes misses the point: the 'trans' brain is fundamentally no different to any other brain. We all have human brains. They all work the same way.

It's a handy trick to externalise aspects of one's psychological makeup that we're uncomfortable with, nothing more.

Think mind-alleles, not brain-alleles.

@FamilyOfAliens

Doesn’t a member of a privileged group automatically become a member of a marginalised group when they transition though?

No, they don’t because by that definition it should be possible for a girl to identify out of being vulnerable to FGM and a woman to rape.

We cannot detransition out of our sex class.

Marginalised groups are not purely about women though, other marginalised groups exist too. Trans people are definitely marginalised as I don’t think they have the same or equivalent rights if you like. They are also discriminated against in some circles (not saying here and on this thread) but my son has been persecuted and discriminated against for being trans.

[quote Janeteapot]@Fraida. We know that not everyone who IDs as transgender has dysphoria, because the definition of 'transgender' has culturally broadened to include cross-dressers and people who are gender fluid. My feeling is that this can make life more difficult for people with dysphoria because there is less understanding of how acute their distress can be.[/quote]
Ok, you see I guess I was thinking about it in the context again of my own experience with DS. I very much correlate being trans with having gender dysphoria as that is what I hear from other parents of trans children - the common thread that links the kids is that they all experience gender dysphoria.

I completely agree it is hard work and sometimes dangerous to be gender non-conforming.
That does, however, apply to butch lesbians and feminine gay men as well as to people who have "the protected characteristic of gender reassignment".

I’ve just said that there seems to be this black and white view in some quarters that trans women should use the gents and that is that but when gender neutral toilets are provided then that is deemed to be pandering to the trans community. Yet it is a solution and perhaps a compromise.

I do not think that anything other than a safe space for women and girls only is a compromise, as it's asking them to no longer have a safe space at all.

I would have no issue with there being womens, men's and gender neutral toilets. Three options. In fact, as someone with trans friends I love I would welcome the option of there always being a gender neutral toilet. They would then no longer have to worry about getting a bad reaction in either single sex toilet. But that isn't going to be realistic as there isn't space / resource / money to always have a third option. That doesn't mean that the next best thing is to demand women share their safe space, making it feel unsafe for them.

Can you see that asking women who feel unsafe sharing toilets with men to shoulder the burden of trans people who feel unsafe sharing toilets with men is just telling women they aren't the priority?

It's saying that what male born people want and ask for is more important than what female born people want and ask for.

That the fear experienced by male born people is more important than the fear experienced by female born people.

That the hurt feelings experienced by male born people are more important than the hurt feelings of female born people.

I understand that where possible compromise is ideal. But when it comes to single sex spaces, a compromise is not always literally possible.

So is the issue here then not with people experiencing true dysphoria and transitioning as a result but those perhaps more on the margins ie. non binary, gender fluid people and so on? Not trying to be inflammatory but trying to understand?

@Fraida my opinion is that dysphoria has existed for a long time, with people transitioning and going under the radar to some extent. The massive cultural change in the last 5-10 years is from the others you mention (e.g. gender fluid, non-binary) as well as others who transition in part because of social contagion or the pressures of misogyny, rather than because they are genuinely dysphoric. This cultural change is what all the arguing is about.