I'm a Quaker AMA

[QuakerAMA]

I'm a member of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). I'm British, so if I say "Quakers believe ...", I'll mean British Quakers. Quakers across the world can be very different, so do bear that in mind if you're in another country.

AMA.

I live near to a very old and very beautiful Quaker meeting house, it always seems very welcoming (gardens and gates are always open to whoever wanders in.
They also have a cat that lolls in the garden which just adds to the whole peaceful atmosphere.

Thank you for this thread, it is really interesting to read more about what happens within the community.

Name changed for this, although not sure it is still active!

I went to a Quaker school and found the values have stayed with me and have had a very positive impact on my life. One of my strongest memories of school is a ‘Quaker’ hymn we used to sing about George Fox and he old leather breeches and shaggy shaggy locks to this date I’ve never known it this was particular to our school or if quakers around the world sit and sing about George Fox with his shaggy locks pulling down the pillars of the world!

On that note I guess my question is about the existence of (private) Quaker schools - do you think they go against Quaker principles of equality and simplicity? In your view, should private Quaker schools exist?

(Personally, i strongly believe Quaker principles have a place in education however would not send my own DC to an independent school).

To contribute to the previous debate about belief in god and Quakerism - one explanation I have heard is that Quakers view the relationship one has with god as being personal to the individual and that this could include no relationship (i.e. atheism).

Since leaving school I have on occasion been to meetings for worship and found it a very grounding experience at difficult times.

@LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett

I've just stumbled on this thread and read through it all - it's really interesting, thank you for taking the time OP. My question is about equality between the sexes - I tend to think that most religion is misogynistic and controlling of women (but then I was brought up Catholic so, ya' know...)

I know Quakerism is designed to be very equal in theory, but what is it like in practice please?

Hi guys, sorry for not letting this thread drop - I've been away. Will try to catch up, and thanks to the others who've stepped in and answered some of the questions.

In theory, Quakers don't have a hierarchy - the most senior role at Friends House is the recording clerk, and a good proportion of his job is administration. It's a post that you apply for with your CV, and might only choose to do for a few years - it's not really compatible to an Archbishop or a Pope. In the same way, roles in a Meeting shouldn't really be more important than other ones.

In practice of course, like all non-hierarchical organisations, certain jobs like clerk have more status than jobs like catering committee. It's very common for women to hold these sorts of roles in Meetings and very common for women to be 'weighty Friends'. I think the Quaker meeting for business is a good format for people who might otherwise be spoken over - though it can be quite daunting to minister if you aren't used to it.

I don't want to pretend that there's no sexism, because we're all human - most children's committees are mostly female, for example, although there's a dad on ours and he's great. But I think we do pretty well.

@JamMakingWannaBe

What's the relationship between Quakers and porridge oats?

Am I correct in thinking Quaker furniture is quite "functional" - you referred to Puritan believers earlier. Is that style followed by "modern" Quakers?

They're completely unrelated to us! The brand name was chosen because Quakers were seen as wholesome, but I don't believe the company founders were Quakers themselves.

Furniture in a Quaker Meeting House is usually very plain - simple benches and chairs and tables, no altar, nothing ornate. Quaker houses just have ordinary furniture though - you might be confusing us with the Shakers, why are famous for simple design.

@RaisinGhost

This is really interesting OP thanks.

I must admit though, I don't quite get the idea of a religion where you don't have to believe in god. That's what a religion is, isn't it? An idea of which god/s are real, and the best way to worship them?

I see that you compared it to how there are non practising Christians or cultural Jews. But that's a bit different, isn't it? In those religions, non practising people and people of other religions/no religion are accepted, in the sense that they aren't shunned and are supposed to be treated equally. They aren't accepted in the sense that their religious views are considered equally true and valid.

I hope this doesn't sound rude, I'm genuinely curious.

It's a tricky concept. And one a lot of Quakers struggle with, tbh. Every time British Quakers try and publish a new leaflet, they get a lot of Friends complaining that the language is too 'Godly/Christian', and a lot of Friends complaining that it isn't Godly/Christian enough. There are very definitely Quakers who think all Friends should believe in some form of God.

I think Buddhists are perhaps an easier point of comparison. There is a lot of theology attached to Buddhism, lots of about different levels of hell etc. But I think most people understand that the most important thing about being a Buddhist is living Buddhist values like simplicity and vegetarianism and following Buddhist practices like meditation. People aren't attracted to Buddhism because they believe in Buddhist cosmology, and most people recognise that that's not really what the religion is about.

I think Quakerism is similar. It's a religion based around values and practises, and those things are hugely important to us. Your personal cosmology is your own business.

I think most Quakers would say they have a relationship with the divine. Some would call that 'small still voice' Jesus, some God, some the Holy Spirit, some their conscience or the better part of themselves. The important thing is the quality of that relationship, not the name you call it.

@Scotstar

I bet the shetland couple were my mum and dad!! Its the kind of thing they do for newcomers to meeting in shetland. This thread is so interesting I was bought up as a quaker but never carried it on and only was willing to go to meetings as a teenager so I could go to quaker summer school! This thread has opened my eyes up more to quakerism and I feel its something I may want to revisit. Thank you!

Probably! There were only three people in the Meeting besides DH and I. They were really lovely to us, so do pass on my hello.

@Buzzing54

I don't know if this thread is still 'live' but I was wondering about Quaker attitudes to raising children.

Obviously every family will make their own choices but is there any guidance or choices/styles that are popular even if not official?

I was thinking about your comments re finding the good/God in everyone and wondering if that translates to a 'gentle parenting' style and whether historically there was less authoritarian parenting (even when that was common/encouraged in the mainstream)?

Good question. I think I'll answer this one from my experience - as PP have said, there's a lot of variety within Quaker circles, though I do think Quakers are less likely to be authoritarian parents and more likely to look for child-lead practices.

For me, I'm very keen on equality within my family. DH and I set the rules and we expect the kids to stick to them - we have bedtimes and they get told off for hitting each other and all that. But their needs and desires are as important as mine. So when we're trying to decide what to do on holiday, we'll consider the fact that one kid likes a quiet time playing, while another likes to be out and about etc etc. And conversely - MY desire to go somewhere will be given equal weight too. It's not more important than what the kids need, but it's AS important.

I try and be honest with my kids even when it's hard. I try and listen to them and take their views into account. One of my kids said to me once "Why is it okay that you get cross, but it's not okay when I get cross with my sibling?" Which made me rethink the way I dealt with anger, because they were quite right - that wasn't a good or fair way to do things. I try and admit when I make mistakes.

I try not to buy them too many toys, though they're not short of stuff! We don't do mountains of presents though and they wear plenty of hand-me-downs. DH is very keen on us lowering our expectations - that they don't need trips to Disneyland or to be top of their class or to have the sort of Shirley Hughes childhood I aspire to. That being loved and happy and having their needs met is plenty. I want to be the best parent on the block, so I struggle with that sometimes. But I think he has a point.

They're pretty little, but when they're older, I'd like them to be involved in drawing up family rules. We talk a lot about how X friend wears a hijab and Y friend celebrates Hanukkah, and that we're Quakers and this is what Quakers believe, but that what they believe is their decision and they might not agree with Mummy and Daddy.

My kids know Mummy worries about the planet getting hotter and doesn't like wasting energy. They're very much at the stage where they love cars and aeroplanes though, so I'm not sure that message has gone in!

The most important Quaker belief to me is that everyone is valuable and worthy of love. I think if my children can internalise that, I'll have done okay.

Early Friends were quite different to modern Friends, so historically I'm sure there were lots of very strict, puritan Quakers. I would guess they were less keen on physical punishment, as we're historically a peace church, but I'm only guessing here - very happy to be told I'm wrong if others know better.

@QuakerQuestions

Name changed for this, although not sure it is still active!

I went to a Quaker school and found the values have stayed with me and have had a very positive impact on my life. One of my strongest memories of school is a ‘Quaker’ hymn we used to sing about George Fox and he old leather breeches and shaggy shaggy locks to this date I’ve never known it this was particular to our school or if quakers around the world sit and sing about George Fox with his shaggy locks pulling down the pillars of the world!

On that note I guess my question is about the existence of (private) Quaker schools - do you think they go against Quaker principles of equality and simplicity? In your view, should private Quaker schools exist?

(Personally, i strongly believe Quaker principles have a place in education however would not send my own DC to an independent school).

To contribute to the previous debate about belief in god and Quakerism - one explanation I have heard is that Quakers view the relationship one has with god as being personal to the individual and that this could include no relationship (i.e. atheism).

Since leaving school I have on occasion been to meetings for worship and found it a very grounding experience at difficult times.

Yes, we sang the shaggy locks song in my children's meeting!

This is an interesting question and as you can imagine it's one that many Quakers have strong views on both ways!

I struggle with the idea of religious schools full stop, tbh. I think parents should broadly be allowed to raise their children in their own religion without school interfering. I find the idea of Muslim children having to go to Catholic school because it's their catchment school quite unpalatable. We had a choice of primaries, and we picked a non-religious one.

I don't have a strong objection to fee-paying schools, though my DH does, so our kids are definitely going to be state-educated. Logically I probably should do. I think I come at it from the opposite perspective - rather than banning parents from choosing high-quality education, i would like to live in a country where the quality of state education was so high that fee-paying schools became unnecessary, or became more about ideology than quality of education and facilities.

I have friends who went to Quaker schools, and like pp valued that experience highly. I think Quakers probably make quite good educators. I certainly want my kids to grow up with children's meeting and summer schools and Quaker values as part of their childhood, though if they grow up to join another religion or none at all, I'm okay with that.

Yes sorry! I was trying and failing to find the original quote. I'd read that if a Unitarian was an orange and you peeled the orange, you'd find a Quaker inside.
I think it means that while both have a lot in common the Quakers are more straightforward in a good way!
I've met some inspirational Quakers among my music students and their families and I love Quaker songs.

@QuakerQuestions
My kids go to a (private, expensive) Quaker school and I have thought about that too - and concluded that there must be a conflict between Quaker values and the elitism (not conscious elitism, far from it, but just by virtue of the fact that it is out of reach of many people) of the school.

It’s a shame as I think the Quaker ethos is a fantastic basis for an education. Mostly anyway - now that mine are in high school I can see that there are some kids who would benefit from a more traditionally structured disciplinary approach. There’s a lot of talking about mutual respect but nothing to back it up when that doesn’t work.

Mine sang a song about George Fox when they were younger - can’t remember if it mentioned his shaggy locks though!

@QuakerQuestions We sang the George Fox song at my Quaker school too, and it was generally amended to shaggy shaggy socks. I always wondered about the amount of hymn singing we did, given that Friends don't sing hymns in meeting.

Great thread thank you

I’ve been to the odd Quaker meeting but have never committed for the long term... are there any books you’d recommend for someone like me (or anyone interested in Quakerism generally)?

What do you think of Christmas and how commercial it's all become? Do you celebrate it?

I love this thread, and what I love most about it is that there isn't a single post where someone tells someone else they are wrong - there is lots of "that's a good question and here's my measured thoughts on the topic" but without judgement.

Quaker schools started in the days before universal public education, to allow Quaker children to access an education which wasn't CoE or Catholic. So I don't have an issue with their foundation. As I said upthread, they're a source of some gentle controversy amongst Quakers. There was some talk of trying to start a state Quaker school when academies/free schools became a thing, but I don't think it got anywhere.

@Indigovioletblue

Great thread thank you

I’ve been to the odd Quaker meeting but have never committed for the long term... are there any books you’d recommend for someone like me (or anyone interested in Quakerism generally)?

If you fill in the form here, British Quakers will send you a free enquirers pack. It contains a short book, a copy of Advices and Queries, and some leaflets, apparently. I haven't read the book, but it does have the virtue of being free! www.quaker.org.uk/about-quakers/order-a-free-information-pack Quaker Faith and Practice is also available free online. qfp.quaker.org.uk/# If you want something a bit more in-depth. I grew up a Quaker, so others on this thread who may have come to Quakers later might have better suggestions.

@Ohfrigginghellers

What do you think of Christmas and how commercial it's all become? Do you celebrate it?

I do celebrate Christmas, yes, and so do most Quakers. We wouldn't go overboard, but my kids get a small stocking and a big present every year. If they need something big like a new bike, I might spend a lot of money on it (I would rather buy something good quality that will last), but if they don't, I'd buy something smaller. We have a tree and a turkey and all that. I hate waste, so I don't like that part of Christmas. But it's the one time of year when we see all the siblings and parents, and I like that part. Though DH would rather a small, quiet day at home playing with the kids and their new toys.

Thank you!

OP I've just found this thread, not read it all yet but everything I've read is lovely. I don't have a question but I think I've got an idea - any chance you could keep this thread going or start another one as a 'virtual' Quaker meeting place? I don't live anywhere where I can get to one, and I don't drive, and now there's Covid. I'd love to have this as a thread where I can just come and 'be', and say things as and when I'm moved to, and it looks to me a lot of people might like that. I'm a Buddhist by the way but not in any group and got burned by a Buddhist group I was in years ago that turned out to have all sorts of sinister flaws. So I'm spiritually homeless. And my best/oldest friend is a Quaker elder, so I've seen over the years how good it's been for her. We don't live in the same part of the country so I can't particpate with her.
Thoughts? Thank you.

Do you practice what you preach?

@giletrouge

OP I've just found this thread, not read it all yet but everything I've read is lovely. I don't have a question but I think I've got an idea - any chance you could keep this thread going or start another one as a 'virtual' Quaker meeting place? I don't live anywhere where I can get to one, and I don't drive, and now there's Covid. I'd love to have this as a thread where I can just come and 'be', and say things as and when I'm moved to, and it looks to me a lot of people might like that. I'm a Buddhist by the way but not in any group and got burned by a Buddhist group I was in years ago that turned out to have all sorts of sinister flaws. So I'm spiritually homeless. And my best/oldest friend is a Quaker elder, so I've seen over the years how good it's been for her. We don't live in the same part of the country so I can't particpate with her. Thoughts? Thank you.

I'm so glad you've found it helpful!

I'm happy to keep this thread going as an AMA (and for other Quakers to answer questions, as my experience is only mine, and others' will be very different.) I think I'd rather not turn this thread into something else, as I feel like it's serving its purpose very well right now. And tbh I find the idea of eldering a Mumsnet thread quite daunting! I'm not sure it would be the same thing as a Meeting for Worship either, though I agree that this has been a lovely respectful space so far, so thank you.

If you're interested in attending an online Meeting for Worship, the Quaker Study Centre at Woodbrooke are running regular Zoom Meetings here:

www.woodbrooke.org.uk/about/online-mfw

@Noteventhebestdrummer

Yes sorry! I was trying and failing to find the original quote. I'd read that if a Unitarian was an orange and you peeled the orange, you'd find a Quaker inside. I think it means that while both have a lot in common the Quakers are more straightforward in a good way! I've met some inspirational Quakers among my music students and their families and I love Quaker songs.

Ha, this describes me perfectly I'm an attending Unitarian and very involved in our church but I wonder sometimes (especially on reading this thread) if a Quaker meeting might suit me better.

Thank you for a lovely, interesting discussion, OP.

I would say that you will get a more authentic experience if you attend a Meeting full of regular attenders, than you will if you attend one with mostly newcomers. It does take a bit of getting used to, and one conducted online by newcomers will be a different thing. Not a bad thing necessarily - just different.

@ginghamtablecloths

Do you practice what you preach?

Me or Quakers generally? No, not always. For an organisation with a literal Nobel Peace Prize, we are very bad at managing our own internal conflict. For an organisation dedicated to equality, we are very white and middle class. Like most environmentalists, we don't live perfect lives (who does?) and many of us drive cars and eat meat, though I would think our carbon footprint is lower than most. We try to be honest, but I don't know anyone who is wholly honest (I'm not sure how possible or desirable it would be.)