I wear a niqab! AMA

[JamTea]

Hi everyone,

I am a regular MNer and NC'd for this :). As background, I have a successful career in tech, I am a Muslim and I wear niqab too. Since Boris's comments, I've seen quite a bit written on MN about burqa and niqab, and thought it may be useful to answer any questions people have in relation to niqab. I also know a large number of Muslim women and have lived in various Muslim communities, so can probably speak from my experience and relay other people's experiences too.

Just as a note: I don't know any women in the UK that wear burqa and I have never seen anyone wear a burqa in real life. The difference between niqab and burqa is illustrated here: cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/scarf-651554.jpg

It’s been misrepresented as the religion of the enemy and of oppression

I'm not sure about that. For example prevention of terror attacks is hugely due to the Muslim community reporting on anything they see which concerns them.

However I think the terrorist attacks and regimes like the taliban or Isis, have caused a lot of fear and concern globally, a tiny percentage use religion as a platform to klll and oppress. As they do in other religions.

However any decent person knows that's about rhe people who do this, not the religion itself. The overwhelming majority of Muslims from what I understand hate what's happening and would like to prevent it. They don't see it as in line with their own religion.

Bottom line is religion has a lot to answer for. So many people are killed in its name. I think it's the biggest cause of bloodshed globally. And that's many religions, not just one.

It's one of the reasons I'm agnostic, I believe in god but not religion, because too many people have died in the name of religion. Murder, torture, maiming, rape, oppression. All in the name of religion. It's horrifying.

I have thought about this too @Bluntness100
I don't know how people can profess to believe in a god and then commit such evil in the name of a god they claim is good, loving, merciful, etc. It makes no sense. I suppose it is the power that goes with being part of a large organisation, as religion is, that corrupts.

For an ask me anything thread there's an awful lot of people giving their opinion rather than asking...

Funnily enough, the 'I'm an airline pilot' thread didn't get a dozen angry people holding the OP to blame for the environmental damage done by flying. But the OP here is somehow encouraging the repression of women by choosing to wear a niqab, despite saying a number of times that no-one should be forced to wear it.

There’s a question I’d like to ask which is perhaps only tangentially related to veiling but has to do with the nature of the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims and I hope it’s ok to stray into that territory.

I would say that the Western ideal – and what I would personally see as preferable - is of a society based on full integration with very strong links between cultures as well as within. But what do Muslim contributors to this thread think of this ideal? Would your ideal be more of communities co-existing harmoniously rather than with a strong element of intermingling?

To give a concrete example - my DS attends a school, which is something of a cultural melting pot. Around half of the students are white and there is a largish Muslim contingent amongst the rest. Everyone has lessons together. The only differentiation is that there are a variety of religious assemblies, including Islamic, held simultaneously once a week and students can go to the assembly of their choice. (A secular assembly also takes place at this time.) All students are encouraged to go along to a number of different types at least once, not just stick to the one that’s their ‘natural habitat’.

I’m very happy that my DS is having the opportunity to study alongside pupils from all different backgrounds and belief systems. I’d personally be happy if there weren’t any religious assemblies within school hours and the ideal for me would be for religious education to be an out-of-school activity but I appreciate it’s important to others and the current setup at my DS’s school seems a good compromise between the wishes of non-religious parents like me and religious parents.

I would like to know what some of the (perhaps more devout) Muslims contributing to this thread think. Would you be happy for your children to be educated in such a school or would your ideal be an Islamic school?

Actually I’ve noticed that Islamic schools often do very well from an academic perspective. In a recent national Progress 8 league table an Islamic girls’ school took the top slot, with the associated Islamic boys’ school coming in third place. It’s quite remarkable given that prayers and Quranic instruction have to be fitted in too, presumably. I did wonder if people might start reverting to Islam to ensure their children get a good education!

stigma HEAR HEAR

@OutwiththeOutCrowd
Would you be happy for your children to be educated in such a school or would your ideal be an Islamic school? I would not only be happy, I would actually prefer such a school (but as you say some of the Islamic schools are doing so brilliantly well it would be stupid not to send them there if they are local to you. BTW these schools in question also take non-Muslim students too, and as far as I am aware, there is very little Islam/Quran taught). I had the option to send my children to private school, but because there'd only be 2 or so Muslim children in each class, I was concerned my children may get bullied or may constantly have to defend their Muslim identity (I also wasn't too keen on private school due to my more leftist views but DH was keen).

@Sigma Sadly very true.

@Genevieva Sorry didn't see the question earlier, haven't come across her before but will definitely read that link you shared, thanks.

@FinalDerision Yes brought up in what I would describe as a fairly religious family.

Please can we stick to questions, rather than commentary, as suggested by @AnyaMumsnet too :)

@SimonBridges Thank you for your reply. I've come back to reply since you quoted me and I had an email. You're right, Islam is hated due to the media but in the Qur'an there are verses about war but the context is if attacked. We can't go to a country and then go start blowing up buildings and I think many know about 9/11 and the engineers and firefighters setting up a body to want to know the truth. That's another thing to read about I guess.

There is a hadith which talks about the Muslims going to war (not for himself, they were defending a small helpless tribe) and on the way the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him saw a dog in labour. Instead of continuing to march the 10,000 people army, he told 2 of the companions to be guards for the dog, then told another group of people to make a circle around the dog so that the dog can labour in peace and is not afraid, whilst the rest went around the circle to continue on.

His mercy was such that his own uncle was killed by an opposing army. The lady who called for his execution then went to the battlefield herself when it was over and cut off his ears, nose, limbs, took out all his internals and kept them as her prize. Imagine the Prophet had already lost is parents, wife, grandfather, uncle and many people close to him (they weren't Muslims except for his wife very shortly after he had his first revelations of the Qur'an). His own heart was butchered, taking his beloved uncle. But later the man who killed him became Muslim, he welcomed him with peace. And later on that same lady who butchered the body became Muslim, he also welcomed her with peace. We'd probably reject them if that was us but he never once fell for the offer of gold and property and abundance in food, he came for one message only and that was to worship one God and yes there are rules but when we are promised an eternal life of bliss then this world is only a small amount of time. If he came for his own fame or was deluded then the answer is in the Qur'an and that's enough proof for me. People would come to meet him and they'd wonder which one was Muhammad as he looked just like everyone else, never adorned himself and his family were the same, they regularly gave away to the poor despite being offered jewels and being fine to take it but they would rather have given it away to get reward for the hereafter as the more we do for the poor the more we are elevated and once again, this life is just a short test, many tests yes but the next life will be bliss. Cover you hair, so what. Don't drink alcohol, so what. How many threads do we see about alcoholics and rape and relationship breakdowns. Everyone would rather they had a stable marriage and kept their kids together than have to go through the heartache of splitting and that's what Islam comes to preserve. I have such good knowledge of men cheating and playing games with the wife and other woman on here and I regularly preach Mumsnet advice on not falling at his knees because it is so common (baby centre, I love you but Mumsnet has better advice for that unfortunate time). Men can't look at other women to prevent falling for her over time, same for touch. Women cover (only in front of non mahram men - mahram is basically someone you can't marry eg father, brother grandad, husband) and at home she's free to do whatever. It's only that short moment outside.

Of course it's difficult understand but I really thank those of you who have messaged me about getting a copy of the Qur'an. My offer is still open.

I'd also recommend this to read about Muhammad peace be upon him www.amazon.co.uk/Ar-Raheeq-Al-Makhtum-Sealed-Nectar-Biography/dp/1591440718?tag=mumsnetforum-21
You can probably find a PDF online.

I'll share some videos too

Meaning of life Why did Gabriel hate the Pharaoh? WARNING: first few seconds show Pharaoh's suspected dead body When the Prophet was depressed When his enemy accepted Islam

These might seem irrelevant but our faith in niqab comes part and parcel with our faith in our religion.

That's OK. When you have read about her, I would be very interested in your thoughts. The reason is that, 100 years ago educated Muslim women in Egypt were at the forefront of the feminist movement worldwide. They discussed headscarfs and face coverings and different women had different opinions, but for the most part face coverings were associated with a patriarchal harem life in which women were confined to the domestic sphere. They wanted to break away from this and show that women could play an active role in public life. They did so very successfully. Within a decade of Huda removing her veil the majority of Egyptian women chose not to wear any kind of headscarf. This doesn't mean that her choice then is the right choice for all Muslim women now, but sometimes it feels as if she has been largely forgotten. Why do you think it is that educated Muslim women like you don't know about her when non-Muslim women like me think she was more extraordinary as Emmeline Pankhurst and Millicent Fawcett. I also can't help wondering whether more awareness of women like Huda Shaarawi might be quite liberating for young Muslim women today, because she demonstrates that there is a choice - that it is possible to be Muslim and a feminist and not wear any kind of headscarf or face covering.

@Genevieva
I also can't help wondering whether more awareness of women like Huda Shaarawi might be quite liberating for young Muslim women today, because she demonstrates that there is a choice - that it is possible to be Muslim and a feminist and not wear any kind of headscarf or face covering. I don't think we need to read about Huda to learn this because there are PLENTY of women in our own social circles who are Muslim, don't wear headscarf and are feminists. They are all around us. There are also PLENTY of women in our social circles who are Muslim, wear headscarf and niqab and are feminists. I am a feminist and a hijab and niqab wearing Muslim woman. And that is what is so great about being a British Muslim woman, we are and are surrounded by women who have the freedom to be what they want to be. And I wouldn't want to change that for the world.

OP, a poster above seems to suggest that muslim women need to cover up to stop men looking at other women and falling for them. This seems to differ from your view that you wear the niqab to bring you closer to God.

I feel uncomfortable with this view, though I'm not sure why. I don't know if it makes men out to be unable to control themselves or if a woman's body is something that is shameful and needs to be kept hidden but I think it's this kind of attitude that makes me uncomfortable with the wearing of a niqab.

Is this a prevalent view? That women need to disguise their bodies to stop men from lusting after them? Is that why very young girls are wearing long dresses and headscarves - to stop men from "falling" for them?

It seems that there are very many opinions on what a woman should wear but surely if this is a teaching from God then it would be very clear. So why the confusion?

I feel a bit like you have just dismissed one of the greatest women of the 20th century. It is a bit like saying that we don't need to know about Emmeline Pankhurst because we have the vote. My comment wasn't in any way dismissive of your choice. I am interested because you have made a different choice from her. This raises all sorts of questions. Like is the purpose of the niqab the same as it was 100 years ago? Some one earlier mentioned that, from the outsider's perspective the niqab can look like a bit of a statement and that, as such it can seem paradoxically immodest or vane to wear it. However, I am wondering whether wearing the niqab now is the equivalent of unveiling 100 years ago. Is it perhaps saying 'I can choose to cover my face and participate in public life'?

@Arthuritis is this a prevalent view? No, not in my experience. I think some elderly folk might believe that due to cultural norms, but i cant see this kind of thinking in my generation. Is that why very young girls are wearing long dresses and headscarves - to stop men from "falling" for them? Absoloutely not. The only reason some young children may wear a headscarf is because they may want to copy their mum/elder sibling or parents feel if they wear it when young, it will be an easier transition for them when they reach puberty and make a decision on whether to wear it or not (And if they choose to wear it at puberty, it'll be easier for them as they'll be used to it- both in terms of comfort but also used to how some people look/treat you because you are wearing one).

@JamTea

Thank you for answering. I hope your view is the majority.

I do have to say though, the number of little girls that I see around here wearing the hijab (talking about 5 years and up) and wearing it to school etc I do doubt they are wearing it to look like mum. Maybe the parents are getting them used to wearing it post puberty but then is that not conditioning them rather than allowing them their own free choice when they are old enough?

Aaaaargh. I buggered off ages ago because I didn't want to upset OP & it was clear we wouldn't agree.

But I think it's a bit high handed of you to dismiss Huda Shaarwawi.

So a question: do you think you could learn anything by reading about her ideas & her life? You've said above that you don't feel you need to, which is fine, but do you think it might be interesting?

OP, what do you think about things like this?

https://www.dezeen.com/2018/08/16/zav-architects-habitat-orphan-girls-khansar-iran-architecture/

I've been reading this thread on and off since it started and saw this article yesterday and wondered what your take (and anyone else's) on it would be.

I'm afraid I can't get beyond the many issues with the niqab (and a number of other coverings) already discussed. I think sometimes the right thing to do is to do something that's right for the common good, which may go against what you personally want to do. So, you (I mean 'you' generally, not directly aimed at OP) may genuinely wish to cover yourself and be making this choice free from pressure and expectations etc, but your choice has an impact on others. Just like nudists (ironic comparison to make, I know!), would ideally like to go about naked all the time, but are aware that for the rest of us, them being naked makes us uncomfortable etc and therefore it's not appropriate for general day to day life, so they cover themselves and save their nudity for more appropriate times and places. I suppose though, to see the comparison you'd have to accept that your decision to cover impacts other people which I suspect may be the sticking point.

I'm afraid your suggestion that little girls cover to be like their mothers and ease their transition into puberty is no great comfort to the skeptics.

We consider little girls who wear heels or makeup (in public) to be like their mothers to be over-sexualised and generally 'at risk'.

I think sometimes the right thing to do is to do something that's right for the common good, which may go against what you personally want to do

Yes, the impact on wider society is a critical aspect of the debate.

Some years ago now, there was a furore over some remarks made by Jack Straw on veiling and I’d be interested to know what Muslims on this thread make of his comments and if they can appreciate at all where he is coming.

Communities are bound together partly by informal chance relations between strangers, people being able to acknowledge each other in the street or being able to pass the time of day. That’s made more difficult if people are wearing a veil. That’s just a fact of life.

I must say that I have a lot of sympathy for Jack Straw’s position. A delicate balance must be sought between individual freedoms and the need for social cohesion amongst diverse subgroups.

Interestingly, Jack Straw would later apologise, saying he had not meant to cause difficulties for the Muslim community by saying what he did and clarified that he did not support the veil being banned. He wished to reiterate that he was coming from a position of wanting to bring communities together.

He has also more recently condemned the childish remarks of Boris Johnson.

Another aspect that might be borne in mind is that Jack Straw has some hearing difficulties and is probably more aware than most of the need to be able to see the lips for lip reading purposes.

All in all, I can see that this issue is not clear cut and, yes, am curious to know if there is even a modicum of sympathy for Jack Straw’s original comments amongst Muslims posting on this thread.

Following on from the above post I'd like to know what the idea of integration means within the Muslim community? Is it seen as a desirable outcome? If you wear a veil do you see it as your responsibility to make the first move? I know that Muslims are not one homogenized group and that one poster can't speak for everyone but just interested to hear whether the idea is ever spoken about within your friends, family, community.

As a by the by. I've just had a hospital appointment. Quite a serious potential diagnosis so my husband came with me for support. Consultant was an Asian man. Shook hands with my husband but not me. I held my hand out but was ignored. Hello. I'm the patient. What was that all about??? I really felt like I was 2nd class in that room. On the way out he again went to shake my husband's hand but he simply looked at him and ignored his hand as the dr had done to me. I guess my husband could sense my feelings on the matter.

Whatever the reasons for an educated and articulate woman to choose to cover herself in 21 st century Britain, one of the main reasons Muslim women throughout the world wear it is for personal safety eg in Afghanistan/ rural areas of Pakistan/ India, and due to family pressure as outlined by the poster upthread who lives in Birmingham.
The ideology behind it in such places is 1) men will look at women in a lustful way, they can’t help it2) that is a bad thing and 3) the solution is for women to hide their face and body. Not for men to change the way they behave. Presumably that’s just not possible.
It’s kind of the OP to come on and outline her reasons. But why participate in a system which starts from a misogynistic basis?
Furthermore, the Niqab is for me incompatible with British and wider European values. We have had centuries of women arguing for parity with men. We have stable government ( on the whole) respect of law and democracy, values which attract countless Muslim migrants to want to live here each year. Equality of genders is part of the package, and I don’t believe this is possible when women cover themselves and obscure their identity when outside the home. Each time I see a women in a niqab ( and that’s at least once a week in London) I cringe. A dress style originating in the Arabian desert centuries ago has no place here. So flame me.

I agree whatabout.

I agree too. I think most people do but don’t want to inflame the issue.

But why participate in a system which starts from a misogynistic basis?

You're also against marriage too then, which has deeply misogynistic roots?

You're also against marriage too then, which has deeply misogynistic roots?

That's true. Historically, it's the transfer of chattel (women) from one man to another. (note- you don't have a lot of Western feminists disputing this reality, unlike this thread and its 'feminist' defense of the niqab).

The difference is, if marriage didn't exist, it would have to be invented so as to enshrine the modern legal rights that partners have, e.g inheritance, power of attorney, tax codes, conduct in a court of law, and so forth.

In fact, a perfectly balanced version of marriage has been invented in the form for a civil partnership.

You can't say the same of the burqa etc. It doesn't need to exist. It simply doesn't.

Snail trail. Thanks for your response, it wasn't waffle, it was illuminating and interesting 😊

@TacoLover-. Many institutions have unequal or downright abusive practices at their root, for example western medicine and the law. However they have reformed themselves and I'd be silly to reject them now. Same for marriage. @icalledyou- I agree about preferring not to inflame. The " French way" of confronting and legislating isn't always the best. But I do worry that the British way if saying nothing about the issues that disturb us where culture is involved ( unless behind closed doors) has its drawbacks too.