I wear a niqab! AMA

[JamTea]

Hi everyone,

I am a regular MNer and NC'd for this :). As background, I have a successful career in tech, I am a Muslim and I wear niqab too. Since Boris's comments, I've seen quite a bit written on MN about burqa and niqab, and thought it may be useful to answer any questions people have in relation to niqab. I also know a large number of Muslim women and have lived in various Muslim communities, so can probably speak from my experience and relay other people's experiences too.

Just as a note: I don't know any women in the UK that wear burqa and I have never seen anyone wear a burqa in real life. The difference between niqab and burqa is illustrated here: cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/scarf-651554.jpg

Why do you suppose that men don't ever feel the need to please God in the same way?

I'm with derxa too. I'm grateful for the time you've devoted to this thread but I think a lot of your answers have been outrageously facile, and you seem completely oblivious to inherent, life-limiting obstacles imposed by covering e.g. you cannot eat in public except in a special booth (?), while suggesting this is comparable to high heels.

Personally, I feel like you'd have a lot more credibility if you accepted that you've not made this choice in a vacuum, which is something that feminists do all the time e.g. makeup, etc.

With regard to the parallel to heels etc, there is a particular thread of women who 'fall prey' (I fear that's patronising but oh well) to the beauty industry, but this is entirely absent of religious doctrine. Women make these decisions, arguably 'governed' by a beauty industry, which is in turn governed by women, funded by women, consumed by women, and so on.

You might even say when it comes to women and the pressure they feel to conform to some ideal stems entirely from other women. Not great, but equally, not comparable to the burqa.

There is a woman who wears a burka in my town. It’s balck though not blue. I see her in Tesco quite often with her husband and son.

My ex husband went to her house once to fix her boiler (council house and he was working for them at the time). She wouldn’t let him in and said she had to wait for her husband to come home.

What if I start wearing a balaclava and say I wear it because I feel closer to God that way? I am sure a security in the shop or police would ask me to remove it. What shall I say then? Imagine that we are talking on the phone and leave me alone? I know many people wouldn't like me seeing wearing it either. They would feel threatened. People do, sometimes, cover their faces partly due to flu, very cold/hot temperature or working conditions like mining and surgery but this is because of the necessity. Covering your face to feel closer to God even if eyes are visible is not a necessity. You are not going to be closer to God just because of that.

JamTea I haven't posted again since my question (thank you for answering, btw) because it's such a long thread that I've been reading it in little chunks and am still nowhere near the end. I've just got to the bit where you said this, though...

This is what upsets me the most about this thread. I have been a MNer for years (as verified by MN HQ), and I have never come across a thread where group bullying of this nature has taken place and people haven't quickly come to call it out. I am really shocked not just by the extent people have gone to discredit (just because I wear niqab) but also what appears to be radio silence from everyone else.

...and I wanted to let you know that I personally am disgusted by the Islamophobia and xenophobia on this thread. You have nothing but polite and reasonable in your interactions with others, and in return you have been shouted down, your posts picked apart, accused of lying, accused of betraying women, goaded and criticised.

It speaks volumes that lots of posters chose to swallow wholeheartedly the EDL troll I-am-an-oppressed-victim-of-Islam poster's story because it fed into their own narrative, while dismissing you as disingenuous or a liar because your experiences and views don't fit their narrative. Even after MNHQ basically said that candy was a troll, the little core of nasties still continued to bait and bully you. It makes really unpleasant reading, and has derailed a really interesting thread.

@alexpolistigers
The implication of this sentence is that you have worn the niqab for teleconferences, but there have been times when you haven't worn it. Yes, that's right. As I said in my previous posts, I haven't always worn niqab in my adult working life. Therefore before I started wearing niqab, when teleconferencing I didn't wear niqab. In addition to that, there are also times where there are only females present with me in our meeting room, and I remove the niqab then too.

@TatterdemalionAspie Thank you so much for your support and kind words, it means a lot :)

You are not going to be closer to God just because of that

This is looking at religion through the eyes of logic, which is what I've been doing as well. Religion isn't logical though.

The op believes the prophet Mohamed said women should be veiled. She believes "god has told " her to wear the niqab outside her house only. God has told her that she doesn't need to wear it inside. She believes she will be "rewarded" for this by god. She believes she will be closer to him by wearing it as he told her to.

This is what the op believes. It's fair enough.. It may defy logic for many others, inc the vast majority of Muslims, but religion is simoly not logical. By its very nature it defies logic. Most religions have stuff in it that defies logic. People simply believe.

On a separate note rhe niqab and burqa have been banned in quite a lot of countries now. Some of them surprising, like turkey, which is Predominantly Muslim, and it was officially banned because it represented the repression of women. Egypt also interestingly enough has been considering banning it and the Egyptian governments ban discussions have went much further than anything the U.K. has ever considered or any U.K. politician has ever uttered.

Globally more and more countries are condemning it. The reasons are almost always the same. Security fears and female repression.

I quite agree Tatter.
It’s not for me to say if either Jam or Candy are lying but it is interesting that people were much quicker to believe the person whose experience matched their idea of a oppressed woman.

but it is interesting that people were much quicker to believe the person whose experience matched their idea of a oppressed woman

But of course this was always going to be the case. Female repression is the main reason so many countries are banning it. Female repression and being forced to wear the veil by brutal regimes is what we see in the news. We listen to the stories these women tell us. So of course if a woman tells us it's happening to her we believe it.

In addition this is mumsnet. When a woman tells us she is being abused, we listen. We do not attack her. We do not accuse her of lying. We listen to the abused woman and even if doubt exists, we will always give her the benefit of it. Because if we were wrong, and we were attacking an abused oppressed woman that would be horrific. Wouldn't it?

@TatterdemalionAspie

I find your accusation against Candy to be deplorable.

I have no problem believing both the OP and Candy - neither experience proves or disproves the experience of the other. I can quite easily believe that both exist. I date say there are plenty of women wear the niqab freely and by choice. I can also believe that plenty are forced to wear it by abusive or controlling men.

I would hate to think that Candy is dissuaded from asking for help in real life because of the accusations of lying that are being made here.

Op and Candy I believe you both.

I'm interested by the bullying accusations.

When you start a thread on AMA it's because the subject matter is unusual, the reason people want to ask the questions is because it's something out of their experience or don't feel they can politely ask the questions in real life.

After all, "I wear shoes, AMA" would not really get any takers would it?

When you invite questions that is what you will get. The poster who started one about living in ME was robustly challenged on the morality of her decisions . I work in the gem industry, if I started an AMA i would do so knowing I would have to face questions on the ethics of my industry as well as the easier questions.

If asking questions is bullying then the thread really should have been titled "I wear a niqab, fawn on me".

I also don't see why both jamtea and candysugars experiences cannot be true? They may be living very different lives and the only thing they have in common is the covering. There isn't going to be a single experience amongst all Muslim women that cover is there?

I didn’t think it was banned in Turkey (well, outside of govern,ent buildings etc)

Actually I think you're right on Turkey. It is headscarves that are banned and appears to be banned in government buildings like courts, universities, hospitals etc.

Seems to be a lot of controversy there. I'm surprised at a head scarf ban, the headscarf doesn't seem so controversial to me. Clearly it is there though.

I’d like to see any headcovering banned in pre-pubescent girls tbh. Although you can’t measure when puberty starts as a rule so I’d happily ban it for under 13s.

It seems culturally younger and younger girls are covering up to emulate their mothers or because of cultural pressure.

" I think you're right on Turkey. It is headscarves that are banned and appears to be banned in government buildings like courts, universities, hospitals etc."

This is completely false.

Headscarves are definitely NOT banned anywhere in Turkey.

There was a time, many years ago, when you couldn't work in a government function or go to school as a student with a headscarf because the country was actually secular. Sadly, it is not secular anymore, despite the fact that the 1st item of its Constitution still calls it a secular democracy.

"The op believes the prophet Mohamed said women should be veiled."

This is demonstrably false, though.

The Hadith (sayings of Mohammad, recorded and verified by those close to him when he was alive) actually quote Mohammad as saying that a woman's hands and face should be visible.

Hi there everone,

We'd really like to draw a line under discussion of Candy and troll hunting of OP now. Whilst we can't go into detail - TSSDNCOP after all - we're confident Candy wasn't posting with the best of intentions.

When it hasn't been being derailed, this thread has been very interesting, and consequently very popular, so could we now please stick to the AMA?

So if you happily remove your niqab in the company of women there is presumably an element of not wanting men to look at you in a sexual way?

Would you be comfortable removing it in a room full of lesbians or gay men?

And yes, at Cote says, Turkey is no longer the secular democracy it was.

Ok, interesting on Turkey.,,,

So if we are going back to the original AMA.

Op, some questions

Why do you think god wants you to cover your face? For what purpose is this?
What reward do you think you will get for doing it?
Do you think Mohamed would still have said for women to cover their faces if he lived in today's society and had seen the reputation the niqab or burqa now had due to regimes like the taliban enforcing it, and terrorism risks and fears we now live with every day?
Do you think that potential his verified sayings were of a time and a context that no longer applies in today's society? Or do you think he would still wish the same thing? For women to cover their faces, knowing the fear, dismay and concern it causes in today's world, that it did not then?

Op, I think you didn't see my question, so here it is again:
What do you think about the legacy of Muslim feminists like Huda Shaarawi? A link incase you don't know about her - www.amazingwomeninhistory.com/huda-shaarawi-egyptian-feminist/

Hi OP, May I ask, were you brought up in a religious family?

(I was.) (Not Muslim.)

Niqab is such a small thing in the grand scheme of things (I've probably said it a good few times on this thread now) but we have our Islamic history recorded in the books of hadith, the sahabah went through much worse than the niqab being on every news channel.

Our basis is that Islam is about worshipping one God only. The same Diety that revealed the Qur'an. I think every single person who posts on this thread should use the opportunity to learn about Islam away from the media through the direction of niqab wearers on this thread. I suggest having a Google of the miracles of the Qur'an or a YouTube search.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. There are twice as many women converting than men and if Islam is so opressive, there would be more males converting. Many of these women adopt the niqab because they've studied Islam through and through before they've converted and understood it more than a born Muslim who nowadays will barely study their religion.

The women around the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him covered themselves even before a blind man. I.e. women should also lower their gaze.
When the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him taught the women about Islam, he did so behind a curtain.
Women would differentiate between their hand and the hand of a man by wearing mehndi (henna).

If a woman doesn't agree to wear it that is fine. In the Qur'an Allah tells us there is no compulsion in religion. We cannot force anyone to do anything.

It's so easy for us to wear the veil because we undertake our religion to look out for us from the top, and not the bottom. Every time I go on my phone and open the Google Chrome browser I am forced to see news articles (grr, no option to turn this feature off!) and today's one is about some sport or the other accidentally playing babestation. I see similar things almost every day. We don't believe the covering of hair or our faces removes our freedom or rights but it uplifts us.

Islam actually tells us when puberty starts too and the minimum age is 9. If she doesn't get any period then she automatically becomes an adult at 14 but someone correct me if I'm wrong from madrasa books. That means if a girl bleeds before 9 then it is more a medical issue than it being a period. That said no child should be forced to wear it but I have to say kids like to wear it at times to copy their mother just like how my daughter likes to sew when I'm learning to sew myself and despite being a toddler she's done a few lines when I'm not looking (hand sewing) or wanting to try on makeup. I wouldn't encourage a child to, I'd say you don't have to as you're small there is no need for it.

There's just too much to it. You see threads on Mumsnet about the alarming rate of peadophiles that may be living amongst us and we don't know it or the sites where people steal pics from someone's timeline (ever seen baby centres warnings about people uploading their photos I've and over again?) because some sick people upload these photos to rope play sites and use pictures of kids for unimaginable things. People are always going to have an uproar about this yet there will be a group of people who will still upload naked pics of their kids publicly on their Facebook timeline and say my kid, my choice and turn a blind eye to the reality of the internet.

We can't get our point across to every single person but the few that agree will be glad they took that measure even if just in case.

And another thing that I'm probably repeating is the wisdom behind it too. Our skin gets covered but protected from the sun and it's funny because when I'm on other websites focused on other topics such as going plastic free, people are warning not to leave sun tan lotion (as they mostly come in plastic) due to so many people being affected by the sun damaging their skin and becoming seriously ill. I see stuff like this everywhere every day on all aspects of life and I look at myself and what my religion teaches me and I keep saying, ah, that's another wisdom behind the 'rule', that's another wisdom. It's not just about doing it for God but God's laws have wisdom behind it, not all we understand or see straight away but boy has a lot of it come out to me in my 20s.

I mean recently BBC had the David Attenborough series about the ocean and the last programme had a dozen things stand out to me. Research stating that boats etc that go by see cause disruption to the animals in the ocean. They found the fish became deaf to hearing their predator due to the sounds of the boats. This affects the eco system. I remember as a kid learning a saying of the Prophet peace be upon him along the lines of avoiding travelling by sea as much as possible.

Today we see beach and park clean up events because of how we treat the earth, there's rubbish everywhere. There is a hadith which talks about jiw rewarding it is to remove harm from the street even if it is a banana peel.

Islam is the only religion which solves racism which has come back in full force these past few years to the extent that kids are getting attacked. Even Malcolm X (and remember how racism was then) said when he went to Makkah he found he was standing with the whitest of skin and the bluest of eyes, and people from Indonesia, China, Africa, America, people of all races standing next to each other and no one gave each other a second look in a negative way. We take our religion importantly for a reason and we know, make one comment about another race (remember Muslims can be white too so say a white being racist to a black person or an Indian being racist to a Pakistani) we will be punished for it. Unless we sincerely ask for forgiveness and that too we have to ask the person we spoke about for forgiveness first. As another human has a right over the other human. When it is between you and God then that's up to God to forgive and He is just, that's why we can't judge people if they don't pray or don't cover etc etc.

You really must look at the source of Islam first which is the Qur'an and then make comments about the niqab and perhaps then move on to the seerah (you can Google this) and then make more comments about whether it is right or not to wear in the 21st century. Without looking at the source it is very difficult for some to understand no matter how much it is explained as I am seeing some things repeated about just not getting why. I know I said I wouldn't come back but I love reading your replies and then I want to reply lol but really, read the source first and then you will have a better understanding and im happy to send a copy from Amazon as I've sent a couple out already. If you want it remember to just quote me with @babba2014 so I get an email notification to check back as I'm quite busy over the next week due to guests but but but, you don't have to read the entire translation, even a page here or there. It's just a small book like a standard novel size. Looks like a normal book in case you don't feel comfortable having one for everyone to see. Don't forget to quote me "@babba2014"

"In addition this is mumsnet. When a woman tells us she is being abused, we listen. We do not attack her. We do not accuse her of lying. We listen to the abused woman and even if doubt exists, we will always give her the benefit of it. Because if we were wrong, and we were attacking an abused oppressed woman that would be horrific. Wouldn't it?"

Except she was just not posting about being abused. This person was also posting saying don't believe Muslim women when they tell you they are not oppressed. Actually inviting you to bigotry! How that was not seen as a red flag I don't know. The fact that some, and it was only some, posters were quick to believe this person causing the moderators to step in, proves it was a case of confirmation bias.

And what's this "we" you speak of? "This is mumsnet....we.... " Are you deciding what all mumsnet posters do now??? You certainly don't speak for me.

It was obvious Candy was not genuine for all the reasons listed by previous posters (access to IT, claims about all Muslim women etc). The fact they were seen as real and the OP was not, resulting in mumsnet actually having to step in, is pretty damning.

I think you owe the OP an apology.

Thank you for your interesting post @babba2014.
Speaking for myself I don’t know a great deal of Muslim people and those I do know don’t really talk about their faith.
So many people in this country just don’t understand Islam, and I include myself.
It’s been misrepresented as the religion of the enemy and of oppression.

I think that some men do use their religion as an excuse to oppress and dominate women, but that comes from all religions.
No one on this thread has mentioned the Plymouth Brethren for example which requires women to cover their heads and wear dresses at all times.

From the outside the wearing of a niqab looks like oppression, and I do still see a huge disparity between the way men and women have to behave, but I understand more about it possibly being a woman’s choice.