I wear a niqab! AMA

[JamTea]

Hi everyone,

I am a regular MNer and NC'd for this :). As background, I have a successful career in tech, I am a Muslim and I wear niqab too. Since Boris's comments, I've seen quite a bit written on MN about burqa and niqab, and thought it may be useful to answer any questions people have in relation to niqab. I also know a large number of Muslim women and have lived in various Muslim communities, so can probably speak from my experience and relay other people's experiences too.

Just as a note: I don't know any women in the UK that wear burqa and I have never seen anyone wear a burqa in real life. The difference between niqab and burqa is illustrated here: cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/scarf-651554.jpg

I work in a supermarket and we have many women come in wearing niqabs and some wearing burkhas. This hasn't happened to me yet, but I do worry that it might - what happens if they want to buy an age restricted product and need to show ID? Is it acceptable to ask them to lift their veil? I worry that in asking I will cause offence. Obviously they won't be buying alcohol but we ID for many other things - energy drinks, DVDs, kitchen knives, laxatives ...

Aridane no one has come on here saying that they hate Muslims or Islam or that they wish Islam didn't exist or whatever. Bluntness has been robust in her criticism and challenging of the OP, and I see nothing wrong with that. I adhere to no religion, but if I did, I would want it to be able to stand up to challenge. If it doesn't, then what would be the point in believing it?

At least by challenging the OP we do her the courtesy of assuming that she is sincere in her belief and intelligent enough to have thought it through. We don't assume she is a delicate flower who can't take any criticism.

To taco lover I pity women like you. You no what is going on and when people speak out you look to make them look bad. You have no place here trying to imply I do not speak the truth

ok

Sorry I don't want to derail the thread. This just made me go a bit

To me, it does seem as though the OP has made some incongruous statements. For example, why would she be bare faced for a safe activity like conference calls and then wear the niqab for extreme sports like abseiling?

I didn't read Adriane's post as a direct criticism of Bluntness et al.

Someone posed a great question upthread a bit, which is, OP would you think it's good if covering in the UK gained traction and eventually all women were covered?

Obviously this question is strictly academic, but weighing an action by 'what happens if everyone does this?' is generally quite useful.

Not all, but the vast majority of Muslim women my age who wear niqab have received a specialist higher level of Islamic education

Are you suggesting that in general, niqab-wearing women are more educated than their non-covered counterparts?

What is specialist Islamic education? Does this have a parallel in Christianity or Judaism?

I agree with the previous poster who explained why we are instinctively afraid of people who cover their faces. I do have an almost visceral reaction to this - including, to much hilarity, Darth Vader when we were at Disney World. The blank space where his face should be invoked a very strong feeling. Still today most people in our society cover their faces when the are up to no good. There is a spate of boys covering their faces with bandanas and then attacking or mugging people in the town where I live. This just reinforces that fear.

Obviously I understand that women wearing veils are not likely to mug me but I think that deep rooted fear still makes me wary, even if it is subconciously. I think that if you are going to dress like this then you have to take on board how others may feel and maybe make the first move in trying to break down these barriers. Sadly, my experience is that anyone wearing this is actively segregating themselves and the veil forms a physical barrier.

We all make choices that impact others and I think we have to take responsibility for the messages that these choices convey. So eg if we look at the swastika - before it became a symbol for the Nazis it was an India symbol for good luck. If I were to walk around displaying it I would need to be aware that most people would see this as a symbol of Nazism, that I was maybe a racist or a member of some awful far right group. I might be wearing it though as a Hindu symbol with good intent. In the west we see the niqab/burkha as a symbol of oppression. Is it a big surprise that many of us will take the view that they are forced to wear it?

I agree that contemplating the merits – or demerits - of a society in which all women are covered when out and about in the public domain is an intriguing thought experiment and I too would like to know what JamTea, Babba and others would make of this.

And I’m also interested to find out the particular sort of Islamic education niqab-wearing posters are receiving. Is it the case that the Hanafi school of thought as championed by the Deobandi movement is involved?

To be fair these societies existed, where there is or was taliban rule.

Boris Johnston along with several other cohorts within the Conservative party are, and have always been, inherently racist. They are set among us to divide communities and incite racism in any form they can muster, overtly or surreptitiously. They have a very long history of this so it should be no surprise to the citizens of the countries of the United Kingdom that the current patsies are that of the Muslim communities the length and breadth of the lands. Islamophobia has replaced anti-catholicism as the modern-day tool of division set down by the ruling cliques of this disturbed Union and it is high time that the good people of ALL communities united behind the same banner of social union. There can only ever be one true war. That war is a CLASS WAR.

OP, what can people do to counter the effects of Boris's recent comments and make muslim women feel more comfortable? On an individual level I mean.

When I see a woman wearing the niqab (not uncommon where I live), I admit I perceive her as perhaps wanting to keep to herself more and am less likely to smile or make small talk. Is this completely wrong?

You gave yourself away when you said "these women" in an earlier post. You never call a group you belong to as they, and you have a good enough command of English to know that.

@Dottysheep1 Thank you! I found your detailed post really interesting, useful and insightful. And it has given me lots to think about.

@DioneTheDiabolist
OP, what are your views on non Muslims wearing the niqab? Never occurred to me that they would want to (actually I have heard a few celebs have worn when attending certain clinics in London to retain anonymity, and fair enough). If they did, it would make it much easier for us, because then it wouldn't be exclusive to Muslims, and therefore my guess is, it would be more likely to be acceptable or at least more attempts would be more to understand the practice.

@Genevieva
Did your husband see your face before you married or did he wait until afterwards? Yes he did and we chatted too of course. It is norm for the face to be shown to any potential spouses.

@babba2014
I find the view that we need to see faces when we talk outdated. We communicate online, or the days before video chat etc and made wonderful friends online. We used to talk over the phone as it was easier than typing. I can't see their face then. In person, I can hear them well unless it's a noisy place. Thanks for contributing on this thread, and please continue doing so :) I concur; I think it is very possible to effectively communicate without seeing each other faces. I think the point to bear in mind is that niqab is only worn in the public sphere so say on the street, and that's not where you and I make friends. We are much more likely to make friends when at a toddler group perhaps (I remove my niqab then as they are pre-dominantly female only) or at my female only gym sessions or swimming sessions (places we socialise). So covering the face I believe isn't a barrier to communication as the communication that takes place in the public sphere is very limited anyways. So the lady at the cashier can't see my smile but she can certainly here it in my voice, just as she could hear it in my voice is she was talking me on the phone.

@MollyHuaCha Jam tea, how would you feel if steadily more and more women in the UK took to wearing the niqab? if they are happy to wear it, I would be happy for them.

To those who said: me wearing niqab means I am supporting the regimes who forces millions to wear niqab. I've explained this before but I will repeat. First of all, there are NO regimes in the world that force women to wear niqab. Secondly, even if there were any regimes that did that, why should I loose my freedom to wear niqab in the UK because these oppresive regimes are USING niqab as one of many tools to oppress its female citizens? Thirdly, women in these oppressive regimes do not want Muslim woman around the world to loose the freedom to choose to wear the niqab; what they want is for their oppressive rulers to let them CHOOSE.

@violets17
Hello OP - do you like living in a westernised society? I love it. I am third generation Brit and have never lived elsewhere, so can't compare but I have visited other places, and this is home and the best place in the world for me! :)

@KennDodd Hi :) Sorry I missed your questions earlier, wasn't deliberate I promise. This thread is long and it is hard to keep up alongside work and other commitments.

1. Can I ask you OP, do you believe followers of other religions and atheists are wrong? If not, why not? Can many different Gods exist? I don't believe anyone is wrong, but I do believe in Allah as the only God and in Prophets Jesus, Moses and Muhammad.

2. OP Do you know the history of Islamic dress? I would assume it predates Islam, which actually isn't that old as religions go, it looks to me like practical desert clothing for first century Arabia, long flowing robes to protect from the sun with face coverings to protect from the sand. These are just my assumptions though, do you know any of its history, pre Islam? What do you mean by Islamic dress? Hijab or Niqab? The hijab pre-dates Islam but niqab as far as I am aware doesn't.

I also have a third (trivial) question. Do you have a facebook page? Are you pictured on there only with your face covered? I don't use FB personally (I think I missed the boat on that), but I know many do. I think some use pics of face covered, others use pics of other things.

@Aridane
OP -/does it upset you to read some of the posts on this thread and the attitudes in them (eg Bluntness)? What upsets me is when people are just not willing to hear that there is an other side, and then try every trick in the book to undermine you and bully you so you leave and don't engage with the thread. If you read from the very first page, this is what a group of MN did (yes a group!). It was deliberate and targeted but what they did not realise was that I am think skinned and not one to give in to bullies.

@Arthuritis I work in a supermarket and we have many women come in wearing niqabs and some wearing burkhas. This hasn't happened to me yet, but I do worry that it might - what happens if they want to buy an age restricted product and need to show ID? Is it acceptable to ask them to lift their veil? I worry that in asking I will cause offence. Definitely 110% more than acceptable, in fact I would do it before even being asked. Niqabi women totally accept that for security or ID reasons they should their veil, and I really want to, as I believe it is very important.

@alexpolistigers To me, it does seem as though the OP has made some incongruous statements. For example, why would she be bare faced for a safe activity like conference calls and then wear the niqab for extreme sports like abseiling? Where did I say I was bare faced for a conference call?

@RoadToRivendell Are you suggesting that in general, niqab-wearing women are more educated than their non-covered counterparts? What is specialist Islamic education? Does this have a parallel in Christianity or Judaism? Only in my generation, yes. As for parallel, I believe it would be similar to full time Torah Study.

@OutwiththeOutCrowd And I’m also interested to find out the particular sort of Islamic education niqab-wearing posters are receiving. I think you find niqabi wearers in the UK from every background and school of thought.

@Cakemonger OP, what can people do to counter the effects of Boris's recent comments and make muslim women feel more comfortable? On an individual level I mean.When I see a woman wearing the niqab (not uncommon where I live), I admit I perceive her as perhaps wanting to keep to herself more and am less likely to smile or make small talk. Is this completely wrong? It is understandable you perceive that but her purpose for wearing it is NOT so that she can keep herself to herself, but it is something she does that is between her and her Lord. So please do say hello to her if you feel up to it, and see how it goes. I think what would help is if people called him out on his racism; and I suppose allowed us women to have our voices heard. So for example, there are people on here you have come and said we believe your experience although we may not agree with you, we believe you and we are willing to listen to you, rather than accuse you of lying. That means a lot.

---
On another point, for those interested, this tweet and video that is linked to it may interest you and I think it may answer one of the questions asked above:

“We look at the burqa as something that is uniquely sexist but we don’t have the same conversations around high heels or push-up bras or uncomfortable tight clothing that women feel obliged to wear”

twitter.com/ruqaiya_h/status/1006548248801226754

@JoyN2016 Where specifically did I do that? I've written tonnes of pages on this thread now. And may be I wasn't including myself in reference to that particular thing when I said 'these women' (if I did)? But what I am most interested is in when you say "you gave yourself away". What specifically are you implying? That I don't wear niqab? That I am not a woman? That I am lying? That I can't possibly be educated, articulate, strong head, opinionated, thick-skinned AND be a woman that wears niqab and is happy with it?

This may also be of interest to those following this thread, in the Guardian:

‘It has made us unsafe’: Muslim women on fear and abuse after Boris Johnson’s burqa remarks

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/14/unsafe-muslim-women-fear-abuse-boris-johnson-burqa?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Outlook

I'm sorry I can't recall who but someone asked up thread about what the niqab I wear looks like (that's not me though in the pic).

Thank you for replying OP, I will certainly try to be less reserved around women wearing the niqab from now on (though I am shy and reserved with everyone!). Thanks for sticking with the thread and answering all these questions, it's very interesting and enlightening.

Very interesting thread but I'm afraid you have made me no better disposed to people wearing the niqab. It makes people feel uncomfortable and it's a barrier to communication. We as human beings have a muscle structure in our faces which allows us to communicate in a very sophisticated way without words. If we believe in God or Allah then we must believe that our supreme being gave us this ability.

Thank you for answering my question OP. I hope you haven't been offended by questions asked on here. It really is very interesting to hear your views and also to be able to ask questions that we don't ask in real life.

I can't say that I agree with the wearing of the niqab/burkha but then I don't expect you to like what I wear and in answering the question about women wearing tight clothing, high heels etc I don't agree with some of these either but that is what is so amazing about living in the UK - we have the freedom to make these choices.

If they did, it would make it much easier for us, because then it wouldn't be exclusive to Muslims, and therefore my guess is, it would be more likely to be acceptable

You think it is desirable or a good thing that wearing a burqa or niqab becomes commonplace?

I'm with Derxa on this.

@Arthuritis Not offended at all :) I can't say that I agree with the wearing of the niqab/burkha but then I don't expect you to like what I wear and in answering the question about women wearing tight clothing, high heels etc I don't agree with some of these either but that is what is so amazing about living in the UK - we have the freedom to make these choices. That freedom is so liberating :) And btw I don't mind or even dislike you wearing tight clothes or high heels, I wear both at home, so it is not a biggie to me at all. As long as you are happy wearing them and whatever else you want or don't want to wear, I am very happy for you :)

@LassWiADelicateAir
You think it is desirable or a good thing that wearing a burqa or niqab becomes commonplace? It may be a desirable or good thing ONLY if that is what women wanted to do, NOT imposed by men, other women, the state or society.

JamTea
Your post on 13/08/2018 at 02:32 (p.13)

You said: "We have lots of teleconferencing at work (even when I didn't wear niqab) and it was never a problem to having effective meetings."

The implication of this sentence is that you have worn the niqab for teleconferences, but there have been times when you haven't worn it.

It may be a desirable or good thing ONLY if that is what women wanted to do, NOT imposed by men, other women, the state or society

That doesn't answer my question. Would it be a good outcome for society in general and women in particular, if large numbers of women chose or "chose" to cut themselves off from normal , public social interaction in this way?

I don't think it is a good thing or desirable and I hope such a thing never comes to pass in the UK or Europe.

You say that you wear the niqab to please your god.

What I can't understand is why you would want to please a being who wants you to hide yourself away, as though there were something shameful about your body. Why you would want to please a being who wants this of you, but wants nothing similar of men. This just looks like misogyny to me, and I honestly struggle to understand why you would want to please a god that you believed was like that.

Other Muslims I have spoken to have said that god has no such expectations and that it is a cultural piece of clothing arising from sandstorms, etc, in the desert. What would you say to them?