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I wear a niqab! AMA

838 replies

JamTea · 12/08/2018 13:34

Hi everyone,

I am a regular MNer and NC'd for this :). As background, I have a successful career in tech, I am a Muslim and I wear niqab too. Since Boris's comments, I've seen quite a bit written on MN about burqa and niqab, and thought it may be useful to answer any questions people have in relation to niqab. I also know a large number of Muslim women and have lived in various Muslim communities, so can probably speak from my experience and relay other people's experiences too.

Just as a note: I don't know any women in the UK that wear burqa and I have never seen anyone wear a burqa in real life. The difference between niqab and burqa is illustrated here: cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/scarf-651554.jpg

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JamTea · 14/08/2018 18:35

@Genevieva

There are only three indigenous reference points for face coverings in European history and these are all pretty harrowing.

Wow I wasn't aware of that at all..! Does this apply for the whole of Europe? Or specific countries? I remember reading in some of the Bronte books about women that wore a veil sometimes and covered their faces? I think it was a specific point in Jane Eyre where Jane wore a veil? And even in The Tenant of Wildfell Hall, I recall something similar (but I did read them in my teens so I may have misunderstood). So I always thought it was very much present in European History, and didn't really give it much thought after that.

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OpalIridescence · 14/08/2018 18:36

babba fascinating posts. Will read again once kids are in bed.

I was really interested in Genevievas post about cultural aversion and possible reasons.

I don't find hair or body coverings difficult when I see them on adult women, but I feel a strong reaction to face coverings.

I have tried to think about exactly why that is. The best I can explain is that it feels like trying to interact with a total blank or a shadow. I find it intimidating.

I also find it difficult as a feminist as it is based on the wearer's sex (also then struggle with not telling other women what to wear). But these are rationalisations of an instinctive feeling.

I know holes can be picked in any theory about a general aversion but I did find the post exploring them valid.

There was a documentary looking at unconscious racism and they tested the public by having people from different backgrounds and in different dress offer free food samples.

As I remember it the Muslim lady in hair covering had as many people take food from her as the rest of the group but the lady with her face covered was not approached.

Even though we all logically know there is a human being under the covering there does seem to be an instinctive reaction when you can't see a face.

JamTea · 14/08/2018 18:38

@Genevieva And in answer to your question, yes the history is very much relevant and I think it would really help us understand where this anti-niqab hate comes from (because atm it feels like a fear/dislike of unknown (very understandable) mixed with Islamophobia).

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RanchoRelaxo · 14/08/2018 18:43

JamTea
Thank you for starting this thread, I have genuinely enjoyed reading your answers Smile
If I am honest before now I have always been intimidated by women wearing niqab (maybe because I am from a town where there are few Muslims so when I do see a niqab it seems unusual) but will make more of an effort to smile or say hello from now on
Sorry that there is some serious bullying aimed at you, I hope that you are thick skinned enough that it doesn't bother you too much

OpalIridescence · 14/08/2018 18:44

jamtea
Sorry I guess my last post was just my musings rather than a question!

I was struck by the comment that men may prefer their wives not to cover the face. When you are out with your husband do you notice people treat him differently when you are covered? Do you feel people assume the covering is at his assistance?

JamTea · 14/08/2018 18:47

@RanchoRelaxo Thank you! And yes please do say hello, honestly I get very happy and feel very grateful when people say hello, although I completely understand when people don't either, so don't feel pressured :)

Thanks for your sympathy re the bullying on this thread - it did happen. But I am very thick skinned, so don't worry :) You have to be if you wear a niqab in public tbh.

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JamTea · 14/08/2018 18:51

@OpalIridescence

I was struck by the comment that men may prefer their wives not to cover the face. When you are out with your husband do you notice people treat him differently when you are covered? Yes, most definitely. As I said, sometimes I don't cover my face, so say if we go to a town where I would really stand out and attract undue attention. Do you feel people assume the covering is at his assistance? Not just assistance, I think they assume he may be forcing me? Which not only couldn't be further from the truth, but if you observed us interacting for more than a couple of minutes, you'd realise pretty quickly who wore the pants in the relationship Grin

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CurlyWurlyTwirly · 14/08/2018 18:55

Hi Op(again)

Further to your responses to my questions.
I am interested in your comment that older members of your community would feel unsafe to venture out without the niqab.
My question is who would they feel unsafe from?

People in their own community criticising them or non Muslims? And for what Reason?

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 14/08/2018 18:55

Would clarify, if the niqab was banned

OpalIridescence · 14/08/2018 18:57

What is the difference you note in the way people treat him?

Are the general public less likely to interact with him? Are they less friendly etc?

What about in the Islamic community, is there a difference in treatment of your husband when you are covered then?

JamTea · 14/08/2018 19:02

@CurlyWurlyTwirly Sorry, I don't know if that was a typo on my part, but no, they would not feel unsafe (not at all), but they might just not want to go out as much. This is my hunch. They might feel it is better for them religiously to stay indoors rather than go out in public when their face is not covered.

@OpalIridescence I would say less friendly. I don't think Muslims treat him any differently, unless the Muslim in question did not like or was supportive niqab (but that is fairly rare I think within the Muslim community).

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LassWiADelicateAir · 14/08/2018 19:02

I hink it would really help us understand where this anti-niqab hate comes from (because atm it feels like a fear/dislike of unknown (very understandable) mixed with Islamophobia)

Do you really not understand that for many people disliking the niqab or burqa is because of what it is saying about women and female bodies? That they must be covered up?

JamTea · 14/08/2018 19:11

@LassWiADelicateAir But it doesn't say that. Niqab doesn't say all women should cover up. It is only for women who choose to wear it. There is no compulsion in our faith. And if the objection to niqab was about covering up, why is no one objecting to women being expected to cover up their breasts in our society (when not breastfeeding)? If it was just about objecting to covering up, then surely that isn't acceptable either?

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Bluntness100 · 14/08/2018 19:14

Bluntness do you think she also finds wedding veils harrowing?!

Who is "she" ? Who finds veils "harrowing"? I genuinely have no idea what you're refering too.

Op, I don't think there is an anti niqab "hate" you keep interpreting it as this when it's not. It's discomfort, lack of understanding, and concern.

However to reclarify.its been repeatedly said it is due to what it represents, significant and appalling female oppression, abuse and inequality. The taliban enforcement being the most famous example of this. For the viewer there is little significant difference between a burqa and a niqab. We reject symbols of female abuse, we are equals. And there is no doubt because of events and regimes like thr taliban, that thr niqab or burqa is indeed a symbol of female repression and abuse.

In addition it's difficult for many to converse with another person whose face cannot be seen. Someone who is hidden. It's discomfiting.

I think this is fairly clear?

Aridane · 14/08/2018 19:20

There are a few articles on this. This one is quite old, but names the schools. They do seem to be secondary though and not primary, the madani school seems to be subject of many articles in recent years.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8038820/British-schools-where-girls-must-wear-the-Islamic-veil.html

Ah, yes - that article - lol. The one where Ofsted confirmed this was not the case for the Madani School in Whitechapel...

Growingboys · 14/08/2018 19:24

I'm very sceptical about the suggestions women in niqabs get aggro. There are plenty of women round here who wear them and I've never, ever seen a single incident.

I still think they are a medieval form of dress and an appalling way to control women and that they should be banned.

Bluntness100 · 14/08/2018 19:36

Op, genuine question, if the prophet Mohammed was alive today, and he had witnessed regimes like the taliban and their abuse of so many groups, from women to homosexuals, do you still think he would wish woman to cover their faces? Or would he stop the practice?

Second question, how can muslim woman reclaim the niqab or burqa as a symbol of strength from what it has become?

Different regimes have turned it into a symbol of female abuse. How can muslim woman turn it into a symbol of something good?

Yokatsu · 14/08/2018 19:36

@JamTea
But it doesn't say that. Niqab doesn't say all women should cover up.

But covering up especially along gender lines is seen as a symbol of oppression in this county even if you don't find it oppressive. I find it absolutely dismaying that wearing a niqab is on the increase and worry what its saying to our girls even if it isnt saying that directly to you

I worry that it says that religion is more important than integration with very British values and ideals.

Does Niqab wearing occur more in areas where there is Islamic schools?

LassWiADelicateAir · 14/08/2018 19:39

LassWiADelicateAir But it doesn't say that. Niqab doesn't say all women should cover up. It is only for women who choose to wear it. There is no compulsion in our faith. And if the objection to niqab was about covering up, why is no one objecting to women being expected to cover up their breasts in our society (when not breastfeeding)? If it was just about objecting to covering up, then surely that isn't acceptable either?

So how would you respond to the Imam in Australia who described uncovered women as like meat for flies? Or something equally charming.

You are being disingenuous referring to covering breasts. We don't communicate with or identify people by their breasts.

Every single thing you post just convinces me more that Denmark et al are right to ban it.

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 14/08/2018 19:48

Just picking up on Curly's question about older women in the community, I have read that some Islamic scholars consider it to be less of a sin for older women to go out uncovered, as they are less likely to be a source of temptation.

From the Quran (24:60) Al-Noor

As for women past child-bearing, who have no hope of marriage, it is no sin for them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show adornment. But to refrain is better for them. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Might this passage encourage older women to venture forth uncovered, knowing that the rules are more relaxed for them as regards showing themselves to non-mahrams than is the case for younger women?

Bluntness100 · 14/08/2018 19:52

I'm curious to know how the op feels Mohamed would have changed with today's society.

Many of his wives were older, but for example A'isha was said to be nine years old when he consummated the marriage. And I say this in the context that Mary was supposed to be between 12-14 when 90 year old Joseph impregnated her. So catholisim is no different.

The world was different then. Regimes like the taliban have scared and changed western views. How would Mohamed have behaved today? Would he still want to see woman in what is widely now classed as a symbol of female oppression? Would he wish his wives to be veiled in that context?

Wearing a niqab or burqa was not then. There is no doubt it is now. And it has been made intentionally so by Muslim men.

Dottysheep1 · 14/08/2018 19:54

I think there are HUGE cultural differences in terms of how veils are perceived in Europe and the Middle East, and this could very well be the source of a lot of miscommunication.

Firstly, as far as i’m aware, the concept of a ‘veil’ covering the face in Europe historically means a very, very fine white lace fabric through which you can still see the wearer’s face eg a white wedding veil. It is more of an ornament than any attempt to actually disguise features. Victorian women might have dressed all in black to show mourning (eg think Queen Victoria) and even might wear a black face veil to the funeral, but again it would have been be very, very fine and show the wearer’s face. So your Bronte character would not have been obscuring their face at all.

Showing one’s face and facial expressions to strangers (or alternatively hiding ones face if you pose a threat) is deeply embedded in English culture /psyche and the everyday interactions we have. To give an example of how this stems back to our medieval past- Have you ever heard of a man ‘doffing his cap’ OP? It’s a gesture which was commonly made by men for centuries where they would remove their hat and nod to a passing stranger as a sign of respect. Where did this gesture come from? It originates from knights (powerful, armed with a sword and the King’s authority) who would remove their helmets to a stranger to show their full face and demonstrate that they mean no harm - www.nobility.org/2016/04/28/etiquette-history-hat-tipping/

The practice of ‘doffing one’s cap’ might have finished, but showing one’s face, smiling at people who hold a door open to you/let you cross the road etc is part of our everyday subconscious interactions in the U.K. and Europe.

Conversely, I agree with PP who explained that hiding one’s face has deeply frightening gutteral connotations in British culture stemming back to ancient times. Our mythology and fairy tales paint frightening monsters dressed in black shrouds/cloaks with their faces partially/wholly obscured - eg the grim reaper (a terrifying image that was used throughout literary and religious history), witches dressed all in black casting evil spells, highway men murdering and robbing people. Horror films like Scream, Texas chainsaw massacre, silence of the lambs are more modern examples of evil spirits/violent psychopaths wearing masks to hide their intent that play on this mythology in our psyche to scare us. Unfortunately with the rise of Islamist terrorism, for many people’s subconscious, the niqab is the latest in a long line of dark, shadowy cloaks that signal ill will! We might tell our rational brains that the person under a niqab probably means us no harm, but our subconscious brain is saying otherwise!

What I understand from your posts is that, in your culture, the niqab is a symbol of a gentle, good soul who is religiously devout. Unfortunately this is unlikely to translate across to mainstream English culture unless the wearer makes a big effort to speak to strangers/make some sort of gesture to show they are friendly. The closest comparison in English religious history I can think of are the Anchorites in 13th century England. They devoted their lives to God living by ‘anchoring’ themselves to the church. By this I mean they lived their entire lives in a tiny room in the church with just a small window to the altar (to receive sacrament from the priest) and a small window to the outside world (to receive food from well wishers). They only left the church upon their death. They wore hair shirts to punish themselves for their sin, but, crucially they wore these under their clothes. They observed their religion by shutting themselves away from society, rather than moving within society covered. For more info see en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancrene_Wisse

Bluntness100 · 14/08/2018 19:54

Sorry I should have said it has been made intentionally so by some Muslim men, ie the taliban.

Yokatsu · 14/08/2018 20:02

Sorry OP probably we should move thus discussion to the main boards

Dottysheep1 · 14/08/2018 20:34

Having thought about it, the anchorites became anchorites and locked themselves away never to be seen again following a funeral service as they considered themselves to be ‘dead to the world’. So the closest thing we had (in a religious sense) to being completely ‘outside of society’ and and unseen (1) is locked away and not moving within society using a disguise and (2) technically ‘dead’! en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchorite

The more I think about it, the more I think we associate hiding one’s face with death...