I wear a niqab! AMA

[JamTea]

Hi everyone,

I am a regular MNer and NC'd for this :). As background, I have a successful career in tech, I am a Muslim and I wear niqab too. Since Boris's comments, I've seen quite a bit written on MN about burqa and niqab, and thought it may be useful to answer any questions people have in relation to niqab. I also know a large number of Muslim women and have lived in various Muslim communities, so can probably speak from my experience and relay other people's experiences too.

Just as a note: I don't know any women in the UK that wear burqa and I have never seen anyone wear a burqa in real life. The difference between niqab and burqa is illustrated here: cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/scarf-651554.jpg

Jamtea

You say that you won't encourage your daughters to wear the niqab.

If they choose not to, then wouldn't it mean, to you, that they would be going against your God by 'not pleasing him'?.....

^ what Bluntness100 said.

A friend popped round earlier with her teenage ds for a cuppa in the garden. She would only remove her hijab (not niqab) after he & my 14yo ds had gone out to the park - I probably only noticed this because of this thread - she heard the boys slam out the front door & promptly whipped it off with a sigh of relief!

I'd love to have this conversation with her, because it's fascinating, but I value her friendship too much to risk upsetting or offending her; we obviously see things really differently.

So if you start an AMA thread, I think you're going to get asked all the potentially rude questions people don't quite like to raise with their nice friend/workmate/other mum at the school gates?!

Sorry if I've pissed you off.

This is a screenshot from a book published in 2014 - so relatively up to date - called The Experiences of Face Veil Wearers in Europe and the Law.

From the text:

Although no official statistics exist, the niqab forms part of the dress code of a marginal number of Muslim day schools and boarding schools in the UK.

The dress code is described as recommended but not obligatory. I am assuming the schools involved are secondary schools, but could not find any direct information on this.

There are a few articles on this. This one is quite old, but names the schools. They do seem to be secondary though and not primary, the madani school seems to be subject of many articles in recent years.

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8038820/British-schools-where-girls-must-wear-the-Islamic-veil.html

I think you’re being disingenuous here, JamTea. You must know what ‘fundamentalist’ means in the context of Islamic teaching - the strictest interpretation of religious teaching, going back to what are thought to be the foundations of the faith.

And I don’t think it’s true to say that the niqab was fine 10-15 years ago and it’s only in the last 5 years that hostility has increased. The niqab was barely even heard of in Western countries until about 15 years ago, so it wasn’t better tolerated. It was barely ever seen a mode of dress whereas now it seems its prevalence is growing to the extent that some feel the need to legislate against it.

How do you explain the tendency of younger Muslim like you to opt for more controversial styles of dress? Is it a desire to challenge norms? I struggle to believe that younger Muslims who wear niqab / burqa all feel a need to be ‘closer to god’. That doesn’t make sense. Younger populations typically are less religious than their parents. Younger generations are known for wanting to challenge norms and test boundaries, however. So is your choice of dress a Muslim form of teenage / youth rebellion, similar to a secular kid getting a sleeve tattoo to assert her identity against that of her parents / older generation?

I know that NO culture and NO sects/groups within Islam would advocate or even encourage 5 year olds to wear niqab. I can say that with 100% certainty

You know every muslim sect, culture and community around the world do you?

"I don't wear it at home because God has only instructed me to wear it in public" How do you know God has instructed you, how does that instruction manifest itself? I'm not being facetious, I ask as someone who was raised a Catholic and as a child was told certain saints were instructed to do something by God. Could these instructions not be a voice in someone's head just an innate feeling without any basis? Is that not how a psychiatrist would look at it? It's very hard to swallow if one doesn't have a blind faith and that is what is being asked of religious adherents.

Afternoon, everyone.

Sorry to butt in again but we feel it's time now to get back to the original point of the thread.

We absolutely encourage debate on Mumsnet but with AMAs we think they are more personal and the expectation is slightly different, and while there are bound to be offshoots and tangents from any discussion, another poster with an opposing view also essentially 'answering anything' is bound to end in a thread that's more of an AIBU than an AMA, and that has certainly derailed this thread a little.

We'd very much like to hear more about the other side of wearing niqab - there's clearly lots to say and obviously lots of interest from you all on hearing about it - but we'd suggest that is perhaps best started as a separate AMA or just a separate thread elsewhere.

It's certainly an emotive subject and we have closed accounts on this thread already because we had concerns that some people were not posting with the best of intentions; and this issue, coupled with the slight derailment, has drawn the thread away from where it started so we wanted to step in now and get things back on track.

If anyone else has any questions for the OP about her views and experiences, please do ask her, but we think any other sort of discussion would be better in a fresh thread of its own. Thanks for your understanding.

@jamtea. I've taken the time to read the whole thread and a couple of things stand out for me.

The fact that only women cover up (men are requested to look down I think you said in your answer to me) just makes me confused. I know you say that it is nothing to do with modesty and temptation but I cannot match that with the way I see girls being covered by a scarf of some description and the boys staying in western dress. I'm just back from a trip to a country in Africa where I observed a school outing to a local festival. The girls were wearing hiqabs whilst the boys wore the full length gowns which remind me of shirts but ankle length. That sat easier with me as both sexes were covering up to a certain level despite the usual dress of boys from other schools being shirts and trousers. There was an expectation of dress for both genders. It truly angers me to see young girls wearing scarfs and other clothes which cover most parts of their bodies whilst the boys (often their brothers or friends) are in shorts and t-shirts. To see children being treated differently just due to gender is entirely unacceptable in my opinion. If women should cover up to please a God then so should men.

You made a point in one of your posts: "I don't believe British Muslim women are using the hijab to say 'hey we are different and we want the world to know'. I feel this is exactly the statement that a lot of people do think when they see women dressed in niqab. you may of course protest otherwise, but perception is often reality and that is exactly how I, and others I know, would view you.

I would never ask a woman to lift her niqab to talk to me. It would feel far too personal a request and I would sooner not talk to her as I would assume that by covering such a large amount of her face that she would not want to interact with me.

I haven't read entire thread but have read quite a lot of it, apologies OP if you have already answered this but I would like to know:

1. Can you explain why the wearing of the niqab by Muslim women living in the UK has increased exponentially in the past 20 years?

1. You say that you have studied Islam at a higher level than many which appears to have brought you to the conclusion that wearing the niqab is the right thing for you. What form has this study taken? (eg reading books/scriptures or more formal learning), and how do you know that your reference sources for this study are reliable/truthful?

Dear Op,

Thank you for starting this thread at such a pertain time, with the new law in Denmark and Boris Johnson's article in the Telegraph having gone viral. Many of the salient women's rights issues have been covered to some extent. What I think hasn't, because it is harder to articulate, is the deep cultural antipathy towards the niqab and burqa. within European society. I wanted to express where I think it comes from and I would be interested in whether this is something you have thought about, whether it sheds new light on the situation for you and on what you think should happen to close the gap.

Some level of ban now exists in numerous EU countries, with slightly different reasoning in each (eg in France the focus is on preserving the secular republic while others have focussed on public security). What I think this shows is that the reasoning for the ban is almost secondary to the compulsion to introduce a ban in the first place. The reality is that no one cared about security in relation to Father Christmas costumes, but they do in relation to the niqab, even though to the best of my knowledge, men have been the perpetrators of hate crimes.

Different countries and geographical regions have different cultural DNA ( use the term loosely but to communicate the fact that culture runs deep). I think that European aversion to face coverings is a deeply engrained cultural inheritance and not a recent thing stirred up by tabloids. 20 years ago most people in Europe would never have come across a niqab. There are only three indigenous reference points for face coverings in European history and these are all pretty harrowing. They are the Highwayman (who might murder you on a remote stretch of road to steal your jewellery and money), the Executioner and the personification of Death. In many cases the iconography for these is intertwined (eg Death with a sickle can look like an executioner with an axe, but he can also be the 4th horseman of the Apocalypse and look like a highwayman). All are invariably shown wearing a hooded black cloak that obscures the face. It may not be rational in a post-enlightenment society, but the negative emotions felt on seeing someone dressed in clothing akin to what Death would wear is guttural and is not going to be dissipated by a few conversations with well educated professional women who choose to wear it freely. By contrast, in Arabian countries, men and women have often covered their faces to protect themselves from sand storms and the Saudi Arabian peninsula has a pre-Islamic history of women covering their faces.

So, do you think that women who choose to wear the niqab in Europe are aware of the cultural associations that their clothing has for Europeans? If they were made more aware of it, do you think it would affect the choices they make about how they express their faith? Or do you think that non-Muslims need to do more to overcome their guttural eversion to face coverings?

I don't understand why some people think that Candy is a troll. Anyone could be a troll here. The OP could be a man at all. How do we know if she is a woman or not? Nevertheless, I still believe that some Muslim women do cover themselves because they believe they have to do it for whatever the reason. Same happens with very religious Christians.

Genevieva, Well I really don't agree there is the cultural associations you think of, in fact they'd never even crossed my mind. I can't speak for others, I get that's your association but please don't link me or mine in with your associations and speak only for yourself.

In addition the op is European. I think she said she is third generation British. She's as European as many of us on this thread. I'm sure she understands rhe culture just fine.

This brainwashing of headcovering is also very strong in the Christian Orthodox church. A woman is often seen as a servant of her husband rather than an equal party. Families with very religious views would often fast during Lent including young children. (I persy find it quite cruel to make children fast as during the Lent and so during the Ramadan.)
theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/womens-headcoverings/

"1.Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head.
(1 Corinthians 11:4)

1. Every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head.

(1 Corinthians 11:5) The message is pretty clear: It is honorable for a woman to wear headcoverings during worship, but it is dishonorable for men to wear them. This is why men remove their hats for prayer, even to this day."

Personally not persy, of course :)

Nothing in my comment in any way undermined the Op's status as a 3rd generation British person. I was simply pointing out that all countries have cultural associations inherited over many millennia that can be passed on subliminally long after their rational sell by date. There is plenty of art from across Europe over many centuries that illustrates the point I made. Similarly, I have seen beautiful, jewel-like Persian miniatures and Moghul paintings showing people wearing face veils and with Muhammed's face shown as a blank. Many Islamic countries have a long history of obscuring the face for religious piety, which no European country has, so the cultural reference points are different. This is not a modern tabloid-induced frenzy.

Wow, Hebe, really hope they listen to you this time!

You've been totally ineffective about the racist and islamophobic bullying so far. It's like they've worked out that you really mean what you say and that you think Muslims shouldn't get bullied....... and they respect you and that sentiment in equal measures.

I was quite interested in your comment about how wear a niqab as you think it will bring you rewards long term but then you said you are quite liberal in some of your other practices.

So do you wear it because you feel more confident as a person ? I think you said about being conscious of facial acne scars. So it's a fashion thing in a way ?

I'm good friends with a Muslim girl at work and she fascinates me in how she's so strict on some things and quite slack on others. It's not new to her religion, people from all regions seem to pick and choose. Personally I just try to be a good person. I know I get judged on my look being scruffy, having bad hair and not bothering with makeup most days but I just go with it.

Islam means submitting to the will of God, the God who is One and has no partner or son. Islam also derives from the root word peace.
Islam comes as the seal of all religions. The reason why you will see Muslim women happily wearing the niqab (face covering/veil) is because of their utmost belief in their religion, which comes from the word of God (the Qur'an) which was revealed to His last messenger.
Many people are confused today and perhaps left Christianity because God being 3 is too confusing. Although Jesus never said he was God and any reference of a begotten son does not automatically mean Jesus as begotten son is used for other prophets too, such as David.

Hinduism is around the worship of statues/idols, even animals etc. However their original and most superior scripture talks about worship one God only, who has no image/picture and has the prophecy of the final messenger who will have a father called the servant of God (in Arabic this is Abdullah) and the same for his mother's name etc etc.

The same can be said for other religions and scriptures but the jist of it is that whilst we respect every person, the original scriptures have been changed to suit man and God tells us this in the Qur'an. However even with all this change it is amazing that if we look into these scriptures we will find reference to one God, God having no image (in the Bible too - that's why Christians also questioned the images/statues of Mary, Jesus etc in Churches and praying to them).

Why do we think the Qur'an is right and that there is God? There are many reasons, but the one that can be relayed to even non Muslims is the amount of information that was in there 1400 years ago before any science and technology i.e. the embryo, the mountain pegs, the solar system, the two seas not mixing it's waters and so on. Scientists today say a man in the 7th century could not have known this. There are scientists telling this to us today then where on earth did it come from? There can only be one answer and that is God. God is outside of our dimension. He is not limited to time, gender, space and everything thay we humans are. He created time, gender and space.

Over a billion Muslims today who live peacei. Surely they can't all be deluded?

The evidence in the Qur'an is enough to make one believe. And if it's hard for someone to believe they just need to say one prayer, whether it's easy or hard to and that is Oh God, if you are really there, guide me.

When you see the clear evidence and miracle in and of the Qur'an, there is no denying and it becomes easy to wear the niqab, or cover yourself or pray five times a day because we know as Muslims this world is just a test and in the next world, as mentioned in the same Qur'an, there is paradise for anyone who believes in God as the one and only. Whether you sin all your life or not, believing in Him as the one is the absolute fundamental of Islam.

In that paradise, there are rivers of milk, water, alcohol which does not intoxicate. Whatever we want we will get.

And one of the amazing things is that the believers hearts will be one and that means we will have no animosity towards each other.

When the book that has absolute 100% correct information that scientists study and discover today, I sure am going to believe in the messenger to was delivered to through the angel Gabriel. And I will believe in the hereafter as how sad is it to think I will never see my loved ones again. I'd be heartbroken but from a young age I've known about the hereafter.

I am not a perfect human being. I was born and bred in London. I love my country. But as I've got older it's become more apparent how much Satan is deceiving us and that's the Muslims too! How media is his tool to create hate and fuel that hate for Muslims who are told in that very same Qur'an that we are not allowed to transgress i.e kill randomly!

There have been haters of Islam who have later on become Muslims such as the politician Arnoud. And he isn't the only one. Something makes them question, with all this crazy Muslim stuff in the news, why is it that these people still follow their religion and are happy?! What is wrong with them? We don't drink wine, we cover up, what is this? Their questioning led them to some truth that made them feel happy and realise Islam's women are not opressed.

My parents did not wear Islamic clothing, nor cover their heads. We studied Islam and we read the Qur'an and we studied the authentic books of hadith. Hadith are the saying or actions of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him or the sayings and actions of the Muslims around him who we call the Sahabah.

The people of their time covered. Mary covered. We can say society is evolving but is it? It seems like most people are on anti depressants nowadays, alcoholism is a huge issue, families are breaking down. A woman can choose to walk down the street with a bikini on and men will stare, not all but many will even if we educate them not to. However if a woman chooses to cover so that no one gives her a second look (because really, who will oogle a woman covered up) then she is opressed despite choosing herself and not ever seeing anyone amongst her family or friends wear it.

Why do some wear it and some don't? I guess the more you love God the more you will want to do for Him. Not saying that the woman who is uncovered doesn't love God. No. I am not allowed to make assumptions about the next Muslim person, my religion forbids me to and forbids me to backbite them in any way. In fact if a fellow Muslim makes an error we are meant to make 70 excuses for them. Not a criminal of course, but random things we like to backbite about nowadays.

See Islam is a way of life. We follow our prophet from the way we go to the loo, to the way we eat, the way we sleep, the prayer before we eat (so we do not over eat). He showed us the way to combat obesity, depression and many illnesses we see today.

If I learn I need to cover, I will. And if my sister doesn't, then so be it. We will be questioned for our own actions justly and not unjustly. Perhaps she may be excused and I not be because I hurt a fellow human being or animal knowingly. But we always pray for God's mercy as He mentions his mercy is great. His mercy is 70 times that of a mother and only 1% of that is scattered on the earth. The rest is for the hereafter.

So in essence it isn't just, why should I wear the niqab or not. It starts from the night when we get up in the middle of the night for the Fajr prayer, the four more times throughout the day. Then Ramadhan, fasting for an entire month. No water in the day either! Giving 2.5% of our wealth to the poor every year in addition to random acts of charity whenever we can. It's all part and parcel, all intertwined. We may not understand all of it but boy do I see the wisdom of a lot of it as an adult.

Perhaps some talks by Zakir Naik may interest people on YouTube. I don't agree with his Islamic rulings but his research and understanding of the basis of each religion makes it all apparent that God's message has never changed, people have changed it to their liking. Except for the Qur'an, as God promises to preserve that and that's why hundreds of thousands of people today, from kids to adults know it off by heart. Try to change a word and you have all these people correcting you. It cannot be changed.

Once the word of God enters the heart, it's easy to open up to the rest. It truly is a peaceful religion, wearing the veil can be challenging in the country we were born in but it's okay, Islam came as a strange religion to the Arabs and at a time where people would bury their daughters alive and have women life, freedom, rights. It's culture that has changed that over time but culture has no part in the original rulings of religion. We only take that which enriches it and not what destroys it (such as silly cultural expectations that come from the sub continent and affects Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis). We studied our religion and saw how Satan encouraged people to mix negative aspects of culture with religion. We debunked them and became stronger in our faith than our previous generations.

I will leave a video for you to watch. Open your heart and see where we are coming from.

@amazingpoddlehairdo I wanted to give my answer to that. I am not someone to lust after by any means but boy are many niqab wearers beautiful (Masha Allah). And same for non niqab wearers. However someone like me or even the person you are replying to in your post can see us just being a sign for mankind of Islam. We walk outside and no one can deny our existence in the west right? So if a not so beautiful (although I believe everyone is beautiful and beauty is in the heart but let's be direct here) wears it, as a Muslim they should not judge me and I should not judge them. I believe everything we experience in our life has a reason to it so if an acne scar makes someone wear niqab, then so what if they cover it up, they still are a symbol of their religion every day when they go out. And God tells us that we must convey the message, even if one verse. What we can't do is judge one another.

The whole point of Islam and submission is following each and every aspect of it but sadly people don't. However again, we cannot ever judge the next person. We can invite them towards good and encourage them away from bad but not hassle them and pester them.

I can tell you that I know of people who passed away who may not followed every aspect of Islam but boy their passing was a beautiful time for their family, peaceful and calm. You sense the mercy of God at those times. They may have been a good person and their thing was helping every person they met, going out their way to help but they still believed in one God. And as a person, were good. As long as we have these within us, God's mercy is limitless. However if we are more educated about aspects of our religion we should follow as much as we can. But look at ourselves and not the next person. That's dangerous territory as we are not hear to judge.

Bluntness I feel the same way as you, this is a multi-cultural society, I wonder whose culture she thinks she is speaking for? The poster is also clearly unaware that many nuns wore full robes and face coverings here until at least the 1950s. The practice eventually died out, it's quite possible the practice will die out for other forms of dress, but this happens organically. I don't know about the OP but if someone told me I couldn't wear anything I'd wear it all the more!

Please ignore the spelling mistakes. Mumsnet needs an edit button. Here not hear and so on and so forth 😐

Bluntness do you think she also finds wedding veils harrowing?!

Thanks HebeMumsnet for highlighting the thread needs to be bought back on thread. I will also only address questions that haven't been answered before, because as you can understand, I have other commitments and have a busy week ahead of me, and I will prioritize the ones from new posters. If you've got comments to make or want to debate, please start your own thread, as HebeMumsnet has suggested.

@shaggedthruahedgebackwards

1. Can you explain why the wearing of the niqab by Muslim women living in the UK has increased exponentially in the past 20 years? The honest answer is I don't know. I don't think academic research has explored this. I could make some guesses, such as perhaps an increase in UK Muslim population, a more confident and assertive second or third generation British Muslims, but the truth is I don't know.

2. You say that you have studied Islam at a higher level than many which appears to have brought you to the conclusion that wearing the niqab is the right thing for you. What form has this study taken? (eg reading books/scriptures or more formal learning), and how do you know that your reference sources for this study are reliable/truthful? It has been formal face-to-face learning, for a period of 6-7 years, from reputable Muslim scholars in England. This included learning classical Arabic and being taught classical Arabic texts, including Quran, Hadeeth and Fiqh books.

I'm in my 20s and as a kid I remembered nuns a lot! Perhaps nuns aren't around as much but that has quickly been replaced by niqab in the UK however in other countries it has been worn for time. I don't think it ever died out just that the Muslim population is actually a small minority in the UK and many were not outwardly practising because religion got mixed with culture from 'back home' as they call it but generally in Islam men and women wear the same clothes, a long, loose item of clothing. Men cover their heads as it's a sunnah (what the prophet peace be upon him did) and women follow the women of his time by the hijab and niqab if they wish to. The more we do to copy him, the more reward we get basically. Women are known for their beauty, hence the magazines full of female models. Their faces are a beauty, their bodies too. Men, they are good looking too but women have been designed to another level. Covering isn't so difficult and confusing to understand if you look at my previous post, it's about the bigger picture but so what if I only have to show my husband, I don't really want to reveal myself to the world. However in female gatherings dress up all you want. But I'm not into that either, going down the minimalism route and all.

I like just being able to be that mum who just woke up and can't be asked with messy hair so I can just whip on a scarf and cover my face and not worry about my clothes. I can literally just go. My religion to me takes away societal pressure too in that sense. I never cared about what anyone thinks of me anyway but the truth is lots of people have many opinions about you! So I'm glad I can be simple and stay away from all of that. God doesn't look at our outer clothes but what's in our hearts so whatever angle you look at that phrase from our religion, the most important thing is to have a good heart, be of help to others, love for your neighbour/brother/sister what you love for yourself. Once you have that established, and prayer, see what else you can do to follow the steps of the most important people in our religion and that is the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his companions, male and female.

He was a simple person. He was offered money, status, women, property, whatever he wanted but he said no to all of it as he came for one thing and that was to invite people to the worship of One God. He could have traded all of that and stopped inviting people to One God but he didn't. Often, or rather most of his life he went hungry because food was restricted by the non Muslims for the Muslims. If he was gifted a beautiful garment and wore it, and the next person said I love that, he immediately took it off and gave it to them. That was his generosity. He had no financial gain of his own. Many of his kids passed away during his life including a son. At the time there was a solar eclipse so people said there is an eclipse because the prophet of Allah's son has passed away. But he debunked that too and said the eclipse doesn't happen because of the passing of my son, they are not related at all.

He had a tribe throw stones at him till he bled. God offered the two mountains to come together and crush the people in between. He said no! He wanted the message of one God to spread. Had he said yes perhaps I would have not been a Muslim today as those very people later submitted to one God (ie Islam) and later travelled to India and spread the message there, where my ancestors at from (so India, Pakistan, Bangladesh etc).

His mum passed when he was 6. His dad before his birth. His grandad and uncle thereafter. And then his wife whom he had his daughters with. He couldn't read or write yet came with the Qur'an (over time) that I mentioned above.

Many or most of us would trade such a simple thing as calling to One God for an easier life, no financial worries, all your tribes supporting you. But he didn't and he was such a person that even after his call to one God, the Jews and Christians at the time would come to him to be a judge before them as he was known to everyone as the trustworthy. They would cover the verses in their holy books that had the ruling related to their issue and this is how each book was changed over time. In essence all religions are the same, they call to one God and that's all God requires us to believe but to get to higher levels in paradise, we do more than that.