I wear a niqab! AMA

[JamTea]

Hi everyone,

I am a regular MNer and NC'd for this :). As background, I have a successful career in tech, I am a Muslim and I wear niqab too. Since Boris's comments, I've seen quite a bit written on MN about burqa and niqab, and thought it may be useful to answer any questions people have in relation to niqab. I also know a large number of Muslim women and have lived in various Muslim communities, so can probably speak from my experience and relay other people's experiences too.

Just as a note: I don't know any women in the UK that wear burqa and I have never seen anyone wear a burqa in real life. The difference between niqab and burqa is illustrated here: cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/scarf-651554.jpg

It is still though a very small percentage of women who wear facial coverings. The sensitivity on this subject far outweighs the scale of it in the U.K.

And the scale of it I would assume is because of the countries where woman are oppressed. For example wearing the burqa was a taliban rule in Afghanistan. Women were denied education, not allowed to work, and punishment for breaking the rules were harsh, stoning or rape for example.

So it is a symbol of something very negative and dangerous, hence why I think the outcry against it far outweighs its dominance in our society, it is a symbol of female oppression, even though many woman like that op wear it voluntarily.

For us, the difference between a niqab and burqa is negligible as witnessed by many posters, however I understand the difference is huge for the wearer.

drspouse, are you certain (a) you don't mean hijab (b) it's part of their regulations.

If it is part of their regulations. Would you mind screenshotting the bit of their regulations on their website (you can blank out identifying details if you wish) as I just don't believe there is a UK school that mandates niqab.

I believe that the accounts of both the OP and Candy can both be valid.

However, banning the Niqab will not make Candy’s life easier, not will it stop the domestic abuse women like her experience, quite the opposite.

Again, I live in areas of high Muslim populations and I’ve never seen a child in a Niqab, I appreciate this is anecdotal but I would be really surprised to see this.

Unfortunately little girls in hijabs is not uncommon, which I don’t like though I do wonder if some are ‘dressing as mum’.

Candy's comment was it would not make her life easier in the short term, but it would her daughters, as such she supported it for their sake.

Ilove I can only assume because it’s the least decorative and would attract least attention from the gaze of men.

JamTea

Thank you for starting this thread.

You mentioned that you have a job in the tech industry. I know quite a lot of people who do and one of the perks of their jobs, from their perspective, is being able to avoid too much ‘face time’ with other people! But it seems to me that there are a number of jobs that really require a rapport to be established between individuals. Human beings usually use facial expressions alongside words to convey meaning and to bond socially.

Do you feel your employment options are limited by choosing to wear the niqab?

MNHQ

When it comes to a hot button topic like veiling, emotions run high. Moderating a thread such as this one is a tricky balancing act. To what extent should an AMA be allowed to segue into a more general debate? You are likely to agree with Abraham Lincoln when he said - you can’t please all of the people all of the time.

I think that it is important women like Candy are able to voice their concerns about veiling. I would agree that once she joined the thread, most of the attention turned to her rather than the OP and this may not have been fair given that it is, after all, JamTea’s AMA. But women brought up according to Western mores can learn a lot from talking to both Jamtea and Candy and I wish it were possible to have a friendly open-minded balanced debate including both their voices.

One last thing – I also feel that it was unnecessary to mention that Candy was a first time poster and that she had subsequently de-registered. If the object was to discredit Candy and if MNHQ have information from behind the scenes to suggest Candy is being less than truthful about her circumstances, then I think it should be stated less obliquely. If this is not the case, it seems unjust to hint in that direction, particularly given the distress evident in Candy’s posts.

You say up thread OP, that covering your face is is a way of getting closer to God. God is an abstract concept, so how would you know whether covering yourself up is viewed favourably by God that's simply a man made interpretation . Assuming you believe God is also our creator, he made us in such a way that everything physical has a purpose including our facial features, why therefore would God expect us to cover those when doing so, impedes their function?

Yes I mean niqab and it isn't on their website. They are not really very far into the 21st century in, er, some respects.

I have other local acquaintances who wear niqab. I know the difference.

Ok so I'm back. I feel I had to come back as many users on here feel I am a troll. I see that most who do think I am a troll are Muslim women. Why is it so hard for you to believe me when what I say is true. Many Islamic schools in my area have this requirement for dress. Many enforce it. Does this embarrass you , does this stop you from your agenda. I feel sorry for the women that say I am liar as they are hiding the truth.

Really really interesting thread which I've followed with interest. OP you sound like a class act and a very patient person to have dealt with all these questions. One thing which I've noticed, as a non-church going Christian, is that wearing the head dress is an outward expression of one's faith. This simple act shows devotion and strength of character in the modern world, no matter what religion or denomination you belong to.

The Prophet Muhammed got engaged to a young girl. Do men then do this act to say they need to get closer to Allah. No they don't so wearing niqab because the prophets wives did means nothing. Many Muslims pick and choose what they want to believe and use a scripture or scholar as there base

And yes MN I am very disappointed with their tactics. I deleted account for fear of retribution nothing else

@OutwiththeOutcrowd

I 100% agree with what you said, especially that us westerners can learn from both JamTea and CandySugar

@CandySugar
Welcome back. I am glad you have returned, to open up the other side of the debate

To taco lover I pity women like you. You no what is going on and when people speak out you look to make them look bad. You have no place here trying to imply I do not speak the truth

If Muslim women only wore the hi jab they could literally free many of us from this existence but they won't. They say they love these garments and that it makes them feel closer to Allah. Really it's to please their husbands or their families and communities. These people are not gods yet they treat them so. Shame on you

I have nothing more to say. I am not a liar. I am a 34 year old woman who struggles with my life. If I offended any people then please keep me in your prayers please because I struggle daily. I struggle for my fellow women and the life I no my daughter will have to lead. I will leave this thread now once again so stop calling me a liar and mums net please verify me to everyone here because I am not bad person

@candysugar.
Do not leave the thread please. I believe you.

I think the biggest issue is the posters are struggling to believe that very young children are wearing the niqab, as opposed to hijab.
I understand it is a very emotive subject to you, but if you could explain how your daughters school force them to wear the niqab, it would help posters understand and perhaps the doubting ones would believe you

Candy I’m sorry for your experiences. I believe that there are many organisations inc women’s aid who can help you and your daughter, she is being affected by being bought up in this abusive environment and will most likely recreate the wheel she is learning if it’s not interrupted.

I feel your anger at ladies like the OP is misplaced however. It is feasible that some women are making choices that you (and I) disagree with but for some it will be exactly that - a choice, which I can accept.

Your husband and family are denying your right to make free choices and will probably continue to do so regardless if the choices of others are curtailed.

Candysugar3

As I've said previously, I also believe you!
I also ask that you don't leave this thread as your input could help other women, who are living the way you are, to find the strength to talk about their experiences.

www.mwnhelpline.co.ukm/

bswaid.org

roshnibirmingham.org.uk

Above are links to women’s aid type orgs which specialise in assisting Muslim women.

Even if you do not call it may be with having a read of the websites and storing the numbers for if and when you are ready to leave. You also have the benefit of two sisters who I assume will help.

I wish you all the best I cannot imagine how strong you must be to face all this, but life doesn’t have to be this way for you.

CandySugar,

First of all, do create your own thread, so you can get the support you need.

I would believe you and I really want to believe you, but you claimed that an Islamic school is forcing 5 year old girls to wear niqab (face covering). When I asked you for the name so I can report them to Oftsed, you not only refused to give it, you said there were many Islamic schools that enforced this exact same behaviour. I am going to ask you politely again: Give me the name of ONE school in the UK that is forcing 5 year old girls to wear niqab (the face covering) and I will believe your entire story. I have repeatedly asked you for this, and you refuse to give it and say you are leaving and then come back with a new username to derail the thread time and time again. Your experience is very valid, but can you please stop derailing this thread time and again when you are not willing to do a very simple thing such as provide one name. I also can't believe why you wouldn't be willing to provide one name (of the many you claim that force 5 year old's to wear niqab), when you are understandably so anti-niqab. It just doesn't add up.

You also made some very sweeping false statements about Muslim men, that most Muslim men are abusers, which makes me doubt the rest of your story.

You also have completely refused to believe my experience (all of it), which fair enough you are entitled to, but are you really telling me that these 100 women who have signed this open letter are also lying and are being forced to sign it (news.sky.com/story/100-women-who-wear-niqab-or-burka-demand-boris-johnson-be-kicked-out-of-conservative-party-11467011), and that this academic research is also not true, and all the women these academics interviewed are also lying too? (global.oup.com/academic/product/the-making-of-a-salafi-muslim-woman-9780190611675?cc=gb&lang=en&)

To others:
A few have asked whether I believe people like Candy exist. Of course there is abuse in Muslim communities at the same rate that it is in other communities, and there are a very few small numbers of men who are using the niqab (but amongst the many other things - it never is in isolation as Candy's experience suggests too) to control and abuse women. But to be completely honest with you, it is MUCH easier for me to use other things to control women, such as financial abuse, in-law abuse, emotional abuse, even physical domestic abuse, than use the niqab. This is because being the partner of someone that wears niqab is challenging, as although you as the man are not wearing niqab, you also face looks, insults, and people even from our own Muslim community sometimes do look down on you. So if the abusive men want to control and abuse women in our community, they have much easier tools to use than use the niqab. Does that make sense?

I would also like to point out that many women stop wearing the niqab too, that is not unusual. Or they will wear it sometimes and not at other times, and that is fine too, as everyone prays and does religious practices depending on how much they can.

But to be completely honest with you, it is MUCH easier for me to use other things to control women, such as financial abuse, in-law abuse, emotional abuse, even physical domestic abuse, than use the niqab. This is because being the partner of someone that wears niqab is challenging, as although you as the man are not wearing niqab, you also face looks, insults, and people even from our own Muslim community sometimes do look down on you.

Isn't in fair to say that the communities in which women wear the niqab tend to be, on balance, very insular?

I'd wager that the more covered the woman, the more likely she is susceptible to abuse or general lack of autonomy. I can hear myself sounding like a meddlesome, patronising Western woman here, but I also think I'm right.

I'm not suggesting it's causal, but certainly that its correlated.

@InionEile

Thanks for your questions. What do you mean by fundamentalist?

Do women now feel more confident in expressing their religion in public or are more extreme versions of Islam spreading due to Saudi influence (funding mosques, schools etc)? I think as the community has moved from immigrants to second and third generation Brits, women are much more confident about their identity, as British Muslims and have the confidence to be that in public. Also the negativity about niqab wasn't there 5-10 years ago for example to this level. It is a more recent thing due to the popularity of far-right, trump and brexit etc.. So it 10-15 years ago for example when women started wearing it, it wasn't as difficult or as negatively perceived by the public.

I think you need to stop attacking candy op. I get you don't like her message or believe her, we all get that, I fully understand why she doesn't wish to name schools.

I would hope we could all be more tolerant to a woman who is saying she's in an abusive relationship, not accuse her of being a liar.