I wear a niqab! AMA

[JamTea]

Hi everyone,

I am a regular MNer and NC'd for this :). As background, I have a successful career in tech, I am a Muslim and I wear niqab too. Since Boris's comments, I've seen quite a bit written on MN about burqa and niqab, and thought it may be useful to answer any questions people have in relation to niqab. I also know a large number of Muslim women and have lived in various Muslim communities, so can probably speak from my experience and relay other people's experiences too.

Just as a note: I don't know any women in the UK that wear burqa and I have never seen anyone wear a burqa in real life. The difference between niqab and burqa is illustrated here: cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/scarf-651554.jpg

@Bluntness100

What does the age she got married at have to do with the niqab she's wearing? Say she got together with her husband in her teens... you want to make the correlation between the 2? Bluntness you come from a place of hate.

Also, if it's is cultural, wouldn't it still be her choice? But because it's not what you want to hear, she is obviously not being honest?

@Candysugar I'm sorry you have to go through that and in the UK! Your daughter has to wear niqab at 3yrs? I have followed Islam dicussions before and never has that come up. Someone mentioned about women's aid... Do you intend to get in touch with them?

OP Do you know the history of Islamic dress? I would assume it predates Islam, which actually isn't that old as religions go, it looks to me like practical desert clothing for first century Arabia, long flowing robes to protect from the sun with face coverings to protect from the sand. These are just my assumptions though, do you know any of its history, pre Islam?

I have never ever seen a young girl wearing a niqab. sorry don't quite believe that. I work in an area that has a lot of Muslims and although I've seen some 7 or 8 year olds in hijab, never have I seen someone who isn't an adult in a niqab.

@candysugar

My daughter will be required to go to islamic school when she turns five and she is required to wear the niqab.

Your daughter is expected to wear a niqab (cover her face) at 5 to school? Please DM me the name of your daughter's school and I will personally report the school to Ofsted. You are quick to accuse me of lying, but the more you are posting, the more unbelievable your story is, as 5 year olds never wear niqab, not even in tribal Afghanistan.

JamTree How do your kids feel about you wearing it? Not sure how old they are but what if they get to a point in their teens where they don’t agree with your choice or the looks and comments directed at you gets too upsetting for them and they ask you not to wear it anymore, would you stop wearing it for them or encourage them to grow a thicker skin?

Interesting thread btw.

you want to make the correlation between the 2? Bluntness you come from a place of hate

That's seriously offensive and erroneous.

Yes I'm trying to work out if it correlated with marriage. So?

@bluntness100 I wore niqab before I married my husband. As I said upthread, my husband would prefer I did not wear niqab. Why do you have so many prejudices about Muslim men and women?

I know people are finding it difficult to digest my narrative but that says alot about your prejudices. Just because my narrative doesn't fit what you assumed Muslim women with niqab are like, doesn't make my experience not real. It is very real. Next time you meet a woman who wears niqab why don't you ask her why she wears it, rather than assume things about her.

To the poster who asked about education, most of my friends with niqab have undergrad degrees and some have masters and a few have PhDs too.

@Ibelieveinkarma

I find it hard to believe and understand thatJamteawould actively and happily choose to wear something in public which can be detrimental to the well being of her daughter's when they are with her, due to any abuse Jamtea could receive.

Thankfully I don't receive abuse every time go out. It happens on odd the occasion. For the most part I am out more alone than with my DC. When I was with them I've only received verbal abuse a few times. I think it can be difficult for someone who has no faith to understand why someone with faith would go over and above.

@Ibelieveinkarma of course they seem plausible. It fits the rhetoric that niqab/hijab or whatever else is evil. Have you ever seen or heard of school where 5 year olds wear a veil? I have never. And if I did I wouldn't think twice about reporting this school to ofsted as @JamTea has said.

My point of Easter and Xmas is not that they aren't fun, but to an outsider this may give them ammunition to ridicule the Christian religion and traditions surrounding the holidays. I've had many atheist friends question what chocolate has to do with Easter or why I give up chocolate and my husband gives up wine at lent. But it's my religion which I choose to follow and they accept that.

@RitaMills

Good question. My kids are fine with it. I don't think it would come to that but if it did I would reconsider. I don't believe the niqab is obligatory based on the school of thought I follow so I am a lot more flexible about times I don't wear it. Whereas women who follow the school of thought that believe it is cumpolisory, they are more likely to not remove it even when things get really difficult (And tbh you really do develop a very thick skin)

Why do you have so many prejudices about Muslim men and women

Wow. I guess you don't like the fact I have pointed out the contradictions on your answers, or the fact I've been supportive of candy.

Show me where the prejudice is?

And what's more interesting is you don't know my ethnicity or religious back ground, you don't know what my husband is either.

Who is the prejudiced one?

Morning, everyone. We just wanted to pop on and see if we can get this thread back on track as it seems to have gone a bit off target overnight.

We'd especially like to draw a line under all the troll hunting now and get back to the OP's AMA. Obviously we can never know with absolute certainty that anyone here is who they say they are. But, for what it's worth, the OP has been on the site a fair while and we've no reason to doubt her. Candy joined yesterday and has since deregged so we aren't really able to verify anything more about her. We're going to leave Candy's posts up as obviously much of the thread now won't make sense without them but we just wanted to let you all know not to expect her back.

In the meantime, it is the OP's AMA after all, so could we get back to asking her (almost) anything? It would be really nice to get such an interesting thread back on track.

@Bluntness100

There were no contradictions in my statements. You don't want to believe me and have tried to discredit me, and do what you will, people on MN are smart and will see through you.

Wearing a bra and shaving my legs are all "choices" I make every day. No one forces me to do so.

Yet there are cultural and social pressures weighing on me.

They say it's a choice and there is no law that says women must do these things. My boyfriend past or present has never told me I must, and yet is it a real free choice to wear or don't wear bra and shave legs? I personally hate doing these things.

I'd say no. The cultural pressure to shave and wear a painful bra each day before leaving the house are incredible.

Cultural conditioning is often invisible because it starts working on us from a very young age.

If your faith and culture are tied up in a strong belief in god and you are taught that wearing certain clothing makes you closer to god and also that being a woman has ever stronger, double conditioning attached with op stating about modesty too. I can relate to that. Part of wearing a bra is modesty isn't it? Not having nipples showing. Stopping breasts from moving around etc. It's certainly not for my comfort (especially with underwires!) It's for everyone else's comfort.

So while OP says it's a choice. I would argue for the side of the debate that says it is not a real choice.

I respect and sympathise with any Muslim woman because we are all women here and we all have these kinds of pressures in one way or another.

Some Muslim women don't wear the veil and kudos to them. Just like women who choose not to use a cover to breastfeed. It takes a certain amount of bravery and conscious decision. But we can't berate those that do. The pressure is very real.

@Bluntness100 offended? So the Radford lady had kids as a teenager, by your thinking, we'll make the correlation that women who have kids in their teens also have 20+kids. As you were. 😂😂

Sadly it seems as if Islamophobia has taken over...

OP is lucky enough (as she has said) to live in a country where she has a lot of freedom to wear what she chooses. At the moment she usually chooses niqab. I can't believe the number of people who want to deprive her of her choice on the grounds that other women don't have a choice! Or, of course, because she doesn't know her own mind, or it's not possible for a Muslim woman not to be oppressed by the husband/family...

If there's one thing I can say about all the Muslim women I know, it's that I can't generalise about them or their opinions, just as I can't generalise about any other section of society.

OP thank you for speaking up.

@HebeMumsnet thanks. That's all we needed to know about @candysugar1.

Thank you @HebeMumsnet :)

It is a huge shame that Candy has de-registered as I am sure Ofsted would have been very very interested in visiting the school where she claims her daughter at 5 is going to be forced to wear niqab. It is also a huge shame that because of her post alone (which now one doubt was even true), people have jumped to the conclusion that my experience and the experience of women I know is not true. That is unfair.

Do you ever doubt yourself and your faith?
Do you ever wonder "what if I'm wrong about all of this, and we really are all just human beings with short lives, and I'm spending mine covered head to toe for nothing? That perhaps the freedom to just be part of a world that meets people face to (uncovered) face on equal terms might be lovelier?

I feel like my own choices affect others. I try to model for my daughter and son what I want for them. I want them to grow up seeing men and women as equals, and I'm teaching them to question and challenge rules that don't need to exist, and which treat the sexes differently.

When we see a woman with a covered face my children and I talk about why only one sex is expected to do this, and what it means for women's rights.
We aren't rude about the woman. But I hate that my daughter especially is learning how the world expects a different, more restrictive standard from her sex.

and those very quick to say candysugar is speaking for women wearing niqab and jamtea isn't...

Would those blaming jamtea for getting abuse because she chooses the niqab say the same about women who get harassed because they wear a short skirt or low top?

JamTea

I just wanted to thank you for the thread. I understand why you wear your niqab (I had read another thread about hijab and that poster had very similar answers to you). I understand that for you, personally, it is something you can do for your Lord.

I didn't mean to be offensive with my questions at all, I was just curious about why you picked Iran as possibly oppressive versus Saudi Arabia - you seemed to have a different attitude to the enforced coverings in each country. I possibly picked that up wrong. Saudi Arabia seems more oppressive to me by far. I realise now you don't have any great insight, any more than I have any great insight into Christian fundamentalists in the US.

I was a bit surprised you didn't point out the parts of the Koran and hadith that you personally believe to mean wearing your niqab pleases your Lord - I would have liked to read those parts as whenever I look it up the explanations seem quite contradictory (some Muslims believe this, some Muslims believe that, some Muslims believe the other). So I would have liked to have read your own personal reasoning on it, even if you were to say what school of thought you follow. Islam seems to me to be a very personal religion - you've said you do things differently to your sister, for example, and that both are fine. This seems quite different to Catholicism, where the rules are the rules (it is of course possible to do extra things). I don't know who the four major Imans of Sunni Islam are (forgive my ignorance).

If you lived in Saudi Arabia hypothetically, where niqab is usual, would you feel it would take the goodness out of it for you? As it wouldn't be an extra thing you could do to please your Lord, it would be what nearly everyone just does anyway? I do understand niqab isn't compulsory in Saudi Arabia. I'm coming at that from a Catholic angle where rules are rules - of course there are extra things a person can do - but up until recently rules were to not eat meat on Fridays, and still to not eat meat certain days of the year. I mostly eat vegetarian all year, so it makes no difference to me to not eat meat... so it's not an extra thing I can do to abstain from eating meat those days IYSWIM.

I'm also curious about hadith being something a person follows for some things and not for others. The Prophet had wives so would that be acceptable to you personally? (As I understand it a man must be able to financially support more than one wife if he wishes to have one, and I'd imagine that he can't have more than one wife if his first wife isn't happy about it, knowing as I do that Islam is very respectful of women.) Would you feel you were doing something that pleases your Lord if you had a marriage where there was more than one wife?

Anyway, I'm pretty live and let live and I don't really care what other people wear. Although it does bother me that in all societies women are the sex that are conditioned to dress in a more aesthetically pleasing way than men, possibly for men, or as a hangover from when it was for men (though women most will say I do x, y and z for myself when asked). For example, I read somewhere that Michelle Obama said Barack had one tuxedo all the time he was president, whereas she had to worry about what she'd wear to all the formal public occasions she had to go to. (I may be not 100% correct on this, perhaps he had more than one tuxedo.) So why could Michelle Obama not wear the same thing to every occasion? Or wear a tuxedo to every occasion? And women are definitely judged on what they wear more than men.

I have found your thread interesting. I do find the AMA threads interesting though I think it's funny that people expect one individual to have all the answers (obviously guilty of this myself). If I started an AMA saying I'm an Irish Catholic, I'm sure things I said would be quite different to other Catholics' answers. I'm sure I'd get a few questions on the oppression of women too, it would be insane if I didn't.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting thread.

AngelsAckiz, oh common about wearing a bra or shaving. Wearing a bra is good for your breasts and isn't painful with the correct bra. Shaving is up to you but generally having hairy armpits is disgusting. It doesn't look nice either.

The male British gymnasts last week. I couldn't look at their bushy armpits.

@JamTea there is contradictions in your post. They have been pointed out numerous times

It’s not islamaphobia to rigorously oppose the Niqab, not is it racist which gets thrown about to shut people up. The majority of Muslim ladies do not wear them as it says NO WHERE in the religious scriptures they must be worn.

Why people get irritated is that the Niqab, in this age, IS used for a political and ideological statement. Women ARE forced to wear this and are even MURDERED for not wearing less . To pretend that doesn’t happen and bask in the luxuary of ‘choice’ Is a mockery of all the other women around the world that are forced in to it. Where is the female solidarity in that? If it IS choice then it smacks of ‘I’m alright jack’ attitude.

Your either part of the problem if you support it.

I do not believe one word that candysuger said. She was definitely trying to derail the whole thread. I am a muslim woman and everything she said seemed very fake and full of lies. If her husband was so oppressive she wouldn't have mobile phone for one. Or access to a laptop etc. I believe the OP completely but ofcourse white women seem to think that all muslim women do not have a brain and robots. I feel very offended