I wear a niqab! AMA

[JamTea]

Hi everyone,

I am a regular MNer and NC'd for this :). As background, I have a successful career in tech, I am a Muslim and I wear niqab too. Since Boris's comments, I've seen quite a bit written on MN about burqa and niqab, and thought it may be useful to answer any questions people have in relation to niqab. I also know a large number of Muslim women and have lived in various Muslim communities, so can probably speak from my experience and relay other people's experiences too.

Just as a note: I don't know any women in the UK that wear burqa and I have never seen anyone wear a burqa in real life. The difference between niqab and burqa is illustrated here: cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/scarf-651554.jpg

OP, it’s not that I don’t believe your posts. I do. And it’s not that I think you’ve been forced to cover or that you haven’t chosen to do so yourself quite happily. I’m sure you are happy.

But you (and countless other Muslim women) will never convince the non believing West that there’s any merit to the practice. For the simple reason we don’t believe in Allah or Mohammed being a Prophet of God. We may believe he existed but that he made a lot of stuff up. God doesn’t exist for most of us so doing something to bring yourself closer to him is a futile exercise.

As for it being a choice. Who cares? We may not be Muslims but we are still women. We know what it’s like to live in a culture that gives you a set of beliefs and offers you choices derived from those beliefs. Ultimately that isn’t true freedom. You happen to like the choices you’ve been offered for you and that’s great for you. But it’s still not a fully informed freedom because Allah doesn’t exist and even if he did there can be absolutely no logical link between modesty and how you dress. None. It’s a completely nonsensical idea that what you wear on the outside is any reflection of your inner goodness or piety. Whether it’s suit and tie, high heels and mini skirt or a face covering. Style isn’t substance.

And lastly we’ve been through it all before ourselves. We’ve lived in a patriarchy where men and women are taught to behave and dress differently which coincidentally favour men on a collective balance and have been offered all kinds of excuses as to why this is and how it’s in our best interests really how it’s our choice and isn’t it all a coincidence?

So we’ve been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Seriously if you want to cover your face, do it! Luckily you live in a country where it’s your choice to do so (even BJ doesn’t support a ban). And I’m sure the vast majority of posters would be happy to chat to you in the street/ be your friend (hell, I even have friends who voted for Brexit ) but you’re onto a losing wicket trying to convince the majority of people that it’s a good thing that has no effect on the rest of the female populace and I’m sure you can understand why. Choice or no choice.

growingboys actually I’m offended by anyone mocking any religion, and I will openly say so, that includes any types of memes including nuns.

Why are you offended though somewhere?
Please don't be on behalf of Catholics like me - I'm fine about my beliefs and very happy to take a joke/be told it's all a load of bollocks.

I don't understand this desperation to take offence, not least on behalf of a religion you don't even believe. Very odd indeed.

I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to sound harsh but there have been a few of these AMAs and they seem pointless. No one has changed their minds, not really.

Also OP cote asked you a question about hadiths and you said you weren't prepared to discuss that but she could ask an imam.

Why did you start this thread? Just to tell us how lovely it is to abseil in a niqab?

“The muslim women I know stand up for themselves, have a decent career and know their minds. “

Yes, I too know Muslim women who know their own minds and make independent decisions.

I also have, within the fringes of extended family, experience of Muslim women who do not have this opportunity. I don’t make any assumption’s about CandySugar’s particular circumstances but education, ‘class’, nature of the community in the parents’ country of origin, rural, urban, professional or not, particular Islamic discipline, influence and views of local Imam, nature of individual family..... loads of factors make a difference.

I know women who hold creative hard to get positions in the BBC who sometimes choose to wear hijab, some who say their families have been totally supportive, some who more or less have to live dual lives to keep any relationship with family as they do not approve of the non hijab BBC LIFESTYLE.

I don't like attention, I never have. I live here because it is my home. I am a third generation Brit. I don't have another home or country to go to. I am Brit through and through. Where do I go to if I leave England? And why would I want to, I absolutely love it here, and this is my country and home!

Thank you for your reply JamTea . As you have answered the question wether you were British born or new to the country so passionately can you explain, why you adopt a practice by choice that is culturally and socially at odds with your country. A practice that causes others to regard you with a mixture of fear, anger, derision and confusion. (I can't think of a single positive 'feeing' that this garment invokes) but above all, division ? and sets you apart from your countrymen. ? and has the opposite affect to assimilation . Which in itself appears a strange desire for a person living in a country 'they absolutely love'. What is it you absolutely love ?

OP - you say you work. Without outing yourself can you tell me what level of education you have? GCSE? A level? Degree? Professional qualifications? Post grad?
I’m sorry but I’ve read the full thread and still can’t see why you choose something that however much you deny it is a symbol of female oppression. I agree with the other poster who said surely God is more interested in the person on the outside rather than the outward face (or lack of it)?

I see many things connected with religion that have either come from common sense in the interests of hygiene (quick burials in hot countries, restricting foods that are actually more likely to give you food poisoning) or population control (not drinking alcohol, restricting lives in general). Much of this can make people nicer, some of it is worrying.

OP: also, what do you make of the many similarities between Islam and Judaism. I am neither but have friend from both and am often struck by the immense similarities, particularity of the stricter sides of both. I think ultra Orthodox Judaism is also very female suppressive. Like most things in life, when people become fanatical is is rarely a good thing.

Why is it so difficult to believe that a woman wearing niqab a) does so out if choice, her own choice and b) is not being beaten by her horrible husband? Because it seems remarkably easy for people to believe that all Muslim men beat their wives into submission. Do you know how ridiculous that is? Do you know how many Muslims there are in the world?

I've seen Muslim women in full covering, apart from face, do loads of things, including running marathons and swimming - things we'd find it hard to imagine doing. As long as nobody is forcing them to wear (or not wear) certain clothes, who actually cares? Just because you wouldn't, or you can't imagine it, while you live in a non-Muslim country, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or can't happen.

Jam great AMA. Even if you were a troll (I don't think you are at all), you've just exposed Islamophobia on Mumsnet very quickly. If you'd said "I'm a Muslim, ask me about Islamophobia in the UK" you'd have a thread filled with comments along the lines of "there isn't much, you're over-sensitive, get over yourself".

@HotblackDesiatoto she's talking bollocks? Or because you simply refuse to understand her point of view or anything she is saying.

the OP wears a veil to help bring her closer to God. Who are we to judge that? I celebrate Easter, the rebirth of my Lord by hiding chocolate eggs in my garden. I give up chocolate for 40 days at Lent and for what? To follow my religion and to bring me closer to a God so many people don't even believe in. I celebrate the birth of Jesus by having my husband wear a red father Xmas outfit. Religion from the outside is always funny and random to others who don't follow it.

But if OP wants to wear a veil, or if someone wants to grow a beard, or have curly hair, or shave all their hair off and wear a wig, again who are we to judge?

Boris Johnson's comments were clever and divisive. Once we start comparing human beings to inanimate objects (letterboxes) we stop them seeing them as human, but simply something that isn't good enough. Simple.

This thread is vile. And if it was about any their religion there would have been uproar and it would have been deleted. Attacking someone because they choose to believe in a God.. disgusting.

Op you neatly body swerved the question on how old you were when you started wearing it. I'm guessing it was an adult.

Did it coincide with your marriage? How old were you when you started wearing it and how old were you when you married?

Was the man you married a free choice, and does your mother wear it too?

Oh dear the very polite crew have turned up because the M world was used.

I don’t believe op is genuine or if she/he is doesn’t actually give a shit about her sisters or even know her own faiths scriptures ..

She states in her first post that there is only a few niqab wears in her little village then jumps to 50 further on down - which one is it ? I’d say that’s a big leap..

She repeatedly stated no countries force any one to wear the niqab - which we know is just fucking untrue! the first picture is of 100,000 Iranian women protesting about the FORCING of the hijab - if they didn’t wear it they were SHOT. Ok the hijab is not the niqab but this is where the rot was able to get and a political and ideological agenda was pushed by extreme religious sects to wear the niqab

Much more women lost their lives in the middle east and Asia for the very important right NOT to cover their face - so don’t you dare JamTea come on here and Make a mockery of those women and claim it’s you that are oppressed.

Second pictures are of women BURNING there niqabs when they were freed from ISIS control - FFS!

The niqab is absurd and a political statement and no I will not take the word of a third generation Muslim lady (who are actually the biggest drivers of extreme religious beliefs) who will never ever have suffered real violence or oppression in the Middle East or Asian countries.

My last point JamTea - please - before you condemn any daughters you may have to this madness read your scriptures and find out what it really says.

Jamtea

I can't understand why you would choose to venture out in public keeping yourself hidden (when you've experienced insults etc) whilst your children are with you.
Obviously, you shouldn't be subjected to abuse just because of the way you dress, but you must realise that some people do feel quite 'intimidated' by people wearing a disguise,
My question is, are you more concerned with 'pleasing your God' by keeping covered up than you are about the emotional well being of your daughters witnessing the looks and comments you receive by certain members of the public?

Also, you've said that you like to converse with people when in public, (well words to that effect), but in my experience, anyone I've ever stood next to or walked past who've been wearing this veil, have never once made eye contact with me, or attempted to strike up a conversation with me.
In other words, I generally get the impression that women wearing the niqab have zero intention in trying to communicate in any way shape or form with anyone they don't know.

Ifyousee - I don't think the point of AMAs is to change anyone's mind, rather that you can ask the OP anything, as in, questions you always wanted to ask but didn't want to because it might seem rude etc.

On Reddit there is another sub called "CMV" which is about changing the OPs mind - they post a viewpoint and then everyone persuades them otherwise. Mumsnet should start doing these threads too!

www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/

@candysugar1 I don't deny that that may be happening to you, and yes it's shit and must be absolutely horrible. Your poor daughter covering her face at 5 is so wrong. Islam doesn't require anyone to do anything ie dress modestly if they want to until puberty as far as I am aware. It's not Islam which is wrong here, it's the men that surround you.

Please contact women's aid and break free from the shackles. Get help and don't suffer in silence.

"I am not going to argue religious scripture with you over the internet. If you want to discuss it and are genuinely looking for answer, please contact your local Imam"

Hilarious. I'm born in a Muslim country, to a Muslim family, where I grew up with regular RE on Islam. One of my late grandparents was a haji and another was a hafez. I don't need to find an Imam in the UK to tell me about his world view.

Also, I'm not looking for an answer. I'm looking for your answer. This is your AMA and I just asked you some questions

If you know anything about Islam, you should know that:

(1) There is no equivalent of Church or Pope between Muslims and God. I don't have to ask an Imam to tell me what to think and neither do you.

(2) Since Quran is complete, perfect, and fully-detailed, all you need to know to be a good Muslim is there. If something is not clear, you look at Hadith.

Quran says to cover your bosom with your robe/head cover (using plain words here for everyone on the thread) saying nothing about covering the face AND Hadith quote Mohammad as saying women's face must be visible.

So how can you say hiding away your face is something God wants you to do? Do you think the Quran is not complete? AND do you think Mohammad was wrong?

If you had said, "I wear the veil because I like covering my face" I'd think it's a bit pointless but would stand with you and defend your right to do as your please. However, you are simply not factually correct when you say that the veil is mandated in Islam and that God said he wants women to wear it. These statements are false and I am deeply sorry that you were convinced by some men to believe them

If you disagree, as I said before, please show me where God tells women to cover their faces in the Quran and where Mohammad says women should cover their faces in the Hadith.

Candysugar.

I believe that it is you who has expressed the reality of life of wearing the niqab.
I think you're a very brave lady for speaking out with the truth. I hope you find a way to break free of the way you are forced to live and wish you all the best

They've just Google'd a few things and as it fits with their agenda and helps justify a ban, decided to use a few out of context quotes to justify their point of view. Honestly, call up any reputable local Imam and he will tell you that there is a religious basis for the niqab

Even if all the religious commentaries support the niqab I would still support a ban.

Why is it so difficult to believe that a woman wearing niqab a) does so out if choice, her own choice and b) is not being beaten by her horrible husband?

Even if it is her free choice I would still support a ban.

@Ibelieveinkarma oh yes let's believe someone who simply reinforces something you already thought, but we won't dare to believe the woman who says she covers her face of her own free will.

Literally ridiculous.

thank you ibelieve. i wish more women could be honest. i can only be honest on here, i no there are muslims out there who just wear headscarf or none at all but most of these are frowned upon by our community and our brothers and sisters. i respect the women who can just walk out without niqab and have freedom to travel places in car and do normal british things. i feel i have no identity, theirs no point wearing make up as its too hot i cant do nice hairsyle all the things that woman like i cannot do

I believe you candy.

I struggle with the ops posts because they are highly contradictory.

She tells us hardly anyone wears it where she lives, that everyone is mainly white, then she tells us about 50 women wear it where she lives.

She tells us she has a successful career in technology, yet for some reason, her neighbours could tell how often she goes to the doctor, just by her leaving the house, so the veil grants her anonymity.

Yet this anonymity is not comprimised by her distinctive shoes bag or scarf.

She struggles to explain the whole my god will like it thing, she just knows apparantly and cannot explain the apparantly verified statements from Mohammed that women should not cover their faces. She basically tells us to bugger off and talk to an Imman when pushed.

Her only justification is the prophets wives wore it. So apparantly it doesn't matter what the prophet actually said, it only matters what his wives did, and as such what does she think he was lying when he said not to wear iT? It is Illogical. Why does it make him happy to not do as he said?

I suspect the op is part of a very small sect of religious who need to wear this, becayse they either married into it or their parents were part of that sect. She doesn't want to tell us this though. For some reason.

It's very clearly cultural. But the op won't accept this. She tells us it's for her own religious reasons only, but cannot explain those religious reasons. Simply god will like it and his wives wore it.

She argues all women who wear it do so through choice. They are happy spiritual women who are not expected to by their husbands or fathers. Unlikely in the extreme. She knows it and we do.

She tells us she happily takes it off to eat or drink or whatever, but then tells us she would not go out unless it was absolutely necessary if it was banned. How does this gel with the successful tech career?

In addition her grammar is off. At one point she refers to women who wear it as "these women" . Indicating she is not one of them. If she was she'd say "us".

Over all I'm surprised the thread is still standing.

Me too bluntness and those points stuck out to me also.

Bonkers22

It's 'literally ridiculous' is it, that I choose to believe all that candysugar has said?
Why? Her points seem very plausible to me, and especially so when I find it hard to believe and understand that Jamtea would actively and happily choose to wear something in public which can be detrimental to the well being of her daughter's when they are with her, due to any abuse Jamtea could receive.

Also, for you to point out that you bury Easter eggs and your husband dresses up as Santa, so what?
That is fun. No one gets subjected to abuse becauseof this.

Tell me Bonkers22 , do you think that Jamtea's children (and other children of mothers who wear the niqab) are 'having fun' being in their presence when their mum's are in disguise? , are they really having the same fun as children who see Santa and receive Easter eggs?

It's ridiculous of you.to compare the two.