A Man in a dress- how would you feel?

And now it is you voicing vehement, dangerous prejudice. If you are counting yourself amongst the women who played a pivotal, indispensable role in the gay rights movement, then what a betrayal to now be the person saying ‘men who wear gender non conforming clothes are all fetishists’ (because that IS what you’ve been saying - this thread isn’t about trans people, and many gender critical feminists on here are fine to let people wear whatever they want). Are you not ashamed?

It's not a "silly" example, it's an extreme example to highlight that "oh I don't care what anyone wears" is a trite response. There are boundaries, clothing can be used to intimidate or demean other people, and these impacts are often political or aligned to power structures.

I'd be far more concerned if it were my husband, whose new and unusual behaviours would undoubtedly affect me. Friend or colleague, wear what you want mate.

I got served in a restaurant recently by a young man wearing a skirt and tights. He wasn't trying to pass himself off as a woman. No problem, this is his business in that setting.

I don't mind men in 'skirts' (kilts,sarongs) or 'dresses' (e.g. those long white tunics Saudis etc wear, same in other asian or african countries), - they're designed for male bodies. A hard no to a man in clothes designed for women's bodies, e.g. small waisted spinny skirts or mini skirts - they just look stupid when men don't have a waist and have thicker more muscular legs than women generally do. High heels also don't usually work with men's legs and usually much bigger feet. Of course, it can work with a man whose body is similar in proportions to women's.

So your question is how would I feel if...? I'd be fine if the outfit actually suited them and didn't make them look stupid or tragic.

Before Eddie Izzard became Suzie or Eddie, I'd sometimes see him strut down Dean Street in Soho, in high heeled boots and a skirt and jacket and a bit of make up. He looked great, but he wasn't pretending to be a woman, clearly wasn't pretending to be anything other than 'himself'.

I have no idea. None of the men in my life would ever dream of wanting to wear womens clothes. If you look at any culture, most men and women want to wear whatever the culturally normal clothes for their sex are. That's what normal people who are getting on with their lives do.

Are women without defined waists allowed to wear dresses? Or if we have muscular legs?

Of course.

Oh, well your argument, has fallen apart then hasn’t it 🤷‍♀️

As a reminder, your argument was: they just look stupid when men don't have a waist and have thicker more muscular legs than women generally.

Really great job at feminism, btw. Making women feel great in their bodies! 👏🙄

Clothing serves multiple purposes and in western society it signals many things including sexuality.
Men can wear dresses but in western culture it will not be associated with positive connotation's.

@Canadanian a female child will have been conditioned from birth on how to accentuate her assets to look feminine.

My thoughts, expressed with more verve than I'd have mustered!

I'd be fine - nay, proud - to accompany a man wearing a dress designed to be worn by men. These have been on the catwalks for at least 20 years, and I love me a bit of fashion.

If he's wearing a women's dress in what he imagines to be a womanish manner, I'm ghosting him faster than you can say 'Wooo!"

There's an English man I used to be 'friends' with on social media. He wears female-coded clothing every day. The photos he posted were usually of himself going to work in slightly dated office wear: straight skirt, neat blouse, heels. Looked smart. Is married with kids.

He never gave me the slightest sense that he was doing it for 'thrills' or trans-related motives. Just said it's what he likes wearing and everybody's got used to him. We talked a lot about how clothing's unfairly gendered and how this changes over time.

I think he's a classic eccentric comparable to Zack Pinsent, who specialises in Regency menswear and dresses in that style all the time. I certainly don't feel he's doing anything bad - though I hope he's branched out from those bloody stilettoes by now!

Well maybe society should work towards making the fact that some men like wearing clothes that have been associated with women ok. It might remove a lot of the forbidden thrill from it and would definitely help stop this whole genderborg in its tracks.
I mean, if men can wear dresses and have long hair and makeup, then someone wearing them cannot claim to be a woman. I say make dresses unisex. And with pockets!

But norms change over time. In the 16th century men wire gorgeous clothes, high heels and makeup. Boys didn’t wear trousers until they were about 4. Why should dresses not be unisex?

People should wear whatever they like but I don’t get the disingenuous claims that it’s equivalent to women wearing trousers. That’s about practicality. I can’t think of many situations where female coded clothing is more practical. Heels never are. Maybe hot weather - which is why cultures that grew in hot climates have many dress and skirt type items for men I suppose.

I grew up in the 80s when there was a fair bit of gender bender fashion. Boy George and Marilyn wore skirts and so did some of the boys in the extended group of friends I used to go clubbing with in high school. We were alternative and it was a part of exploring where we fit in and what the boundaries were. In that context I had no problem with it.

In theory I'm "dress however you feel" but the reality is, I think, I would find a man I knew who was relatively conformist just putting on a dress because they liked it and not finding a way to style it or fit to a narrative of some sort quite aggressive. As others have said, I have probably been put off by Eddie Izzard who used to state he was just wearing clothes he liked and it seemed fine but he turned out to be a complete knob.

Oh, and you think that’s really good do you? And necessary for wearing a dress?

Everyone still think this is a forum for feminists?

I agree with this.
I wish we lived in a world where men and women were free to dress up, or not dress up, as much as they please, and anyone was free to wear anything. The recognition that most men who "cross dress" are doing so for sexual gratification / to shock / in order to parody women has made me question this a bit...... and the conclusion I have come to is that I think it would be brilliant if mainstream menswear brands started incorporating skirts, dresses, a few more decorative flourishes etc onto clothes designed and cut for men.
I think shifting the culture so these became acceptable choices for men would really pull the rug out from under the feet of the fetishists.

What on earth gives you idea we all agree with that (particularly your interpretation that this poster thinks it’s a ‘good thing’)?

This is a forum for discussion about issues of sex and gender. Not everyone participating is a feminist or specifically a gender critical feminist - tbh I think a lot of people don’t understand what that means any more.

If you read the chain you will follow my interpretation - it’s their reason women can where dresses but men shouldn’t be allowed.

There’s this post and then there several that completely deny women any agency on this thread… once again gender critical posters like you are arguing with me rather than ever standing up for women if it’s one of ‘your own’ who is being a misogynist.

You are one of the participating non-feminists, I see.

Nah, just a feminist who sometimes participates inconsistently. So shot me/ sniping at women Feministing Wrong seems to be your specialty 😂

One poster made an odd comment about 'accentuating assets to look feminine' and you reckon every other woman here should be able to explain it? Even more strangely, you seem to think we must all agree with her.

You do realise we're all different individuals? For one thing, you're posting here and I can assure you that you're not me!

Depends on the look and the situation.

Folky blokes wearing long full colourful hippy skirts at festivals or dances - couldn't care less.

Similar blokes wearing badly fitting dresses in the same situation - don't care but my poor eyes.

Work environment - now it's getting weird - this is clothing that isn't run of the mill for men, I am now feeling somewhat weirded out. It would be similar to a woman turning up in excessively revealing clothing or some kind of fancy dress.

Schools/hospitals/police - these environments are dealing with children or people in a vulnerable situation. It's not the time or place for breaking boundaries, standard uniform rules should be enforced.

If men do fancy wearing dresses/skirts they need to start looking normal in them and persuade designers to create normal looking styles for them - much like women did with trousers and suits.

There’s a difference between men wearing feminine clothing to be subversive (eg. David Bowie, Harry Styles, Adam Ant, Kurt Cobain in his prom dress) and men wearing clothing that denotes a very specific, submissive female stereotype because they get an erection from the idea of themselves as that stereotype.

If you feel uncomfortable, it’s probably because he’s the latter.