"We" can always tell

Yes, but on the issue of holding what has now come to be termed 'gender critical' views - the legal clarification is more recent.

If men stopped pretending to be women, this wouldn't happen

I believe Karen Ingala Smith has faced a great deal of harassment online, not just today but for years, simply because of she believes it's meaningful and necessary to highlight male violence against the female sex rather than a specific gender presentation.

I do not believe any of the scolders on this thread have ever condemned that.

It's telling to me how her apology for an error has received far more attention on X from angry genderists than all her posts about murdered women. Almost like they only start to care about a murdered woman when something can be leveraged to advance their project of maligning any woman who does not fall into line with their belief that our womanhood is a matter of personality rather than sex.

Sometimes a person's sex matters. For the purpose of those stats it mattered. A mistake was made and they have apologised. Highlighting a possible factual error is not a horrific thing to do. We can't do away with aiming for factual accuracy because someone might get upset or a mistake might be made. Worrying about hurt feelings is how we came to waste money to have worthless meaningless census stats.

Most posters on here are meticulous in fact checking. They read pages of research studies and court judgements, they watch whole interviews not edited clips, they look at the actual legislation, or policy... and they are not responsible for the actions of other people on other sites or social media.

What would be a bigger news story?

Another woman being murdered by a man

A Trans woman being murdered

The statistics for murders of trans identifying people, of either sex, are (fortunately) that rare in the UK it is a massive deal when it does happen.

I believe Karen Ingala Smith has faced a great deal of harassment online, not just today but for years, simply because of she believes it's meaningful and necessary to highlight male violence against the female sex rather than a specific gender presentation.

I do not believe any of the scolders on this thread have ever condemned that.

Well yes, where’s the condemnation of the OP of this thread? Who, if we follow the logic, must have started it to encourage people to go to X to harass KIS.

I disagree.

"Look what you made me do" is straight out of the abusers charter and it's not something we should be debasing ourselves to.

This is clearly an unedifying episode all round. I am pleased that CDW has reinstated Hayley's memorial, and I very much hope her poor family didn't have to witness any of the extremely unpleasant things said about her appearance online.

I think it's a salutary lesson not to jump to conclusions, not to believe everything we read on the internet, and not to spread "facts" online we haven't ascertained. I also saw the distasteful thread posted on here and although it was rightly deleted it should never have been put up.

"Look what you made me do" is straight out of the abusers charter and it's not something we should be debasing ourselves to.

Abusers are also great at taking statements that are totally valid in one context, applying them to a completely different context and claiming to be a victim.

The existence of burglars means we lock our doors.

I agree with the point about fact checking and stopping to think, but not with the manipulative framing above it.

Statistically being trans is the safest thing to be.

I think:
2 women a week are murdered.
3 men a week are murdered.
1 trans woman every 7 years is murdered.

This issue is wholly created by news outlets and the police reporting Men as Women.

So nobody can trust a single reort of 'woman did or had done to' any more.

And an onslaught of 'That's not a woman' is bound to result in people pulling stuff UNTIL THEY FIND OUT WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

Which is exactly what KIS did here.

So, anyone on here who continuously posts supporting the repression of women and their rights / the takeover of women's spaces / supporting the misogynistic culture of male bullying... should on your logic be banned...

that will kill off a number of posters on here who seem to think that women are secondary citizens and that men should be allowed to do what they want with women's spaces etc...

where would your posts sit?

It's not manipulative. It's the reason that I, personally, disagree. We don't have to always agree with each other.

I don't think blaming others for your own poor behaviour is ever acceptable.

I disagree with your framing of women considering that someone reported as a "woman" may in fact be male because we know know this sometimes happens as "poor behaviour". I consider your framing to be manipulative and that your holding that view exhibits bias about the value of women's own needs, rights and social identity.

You, of course, do not have to agree.

As you will of course know from reading this thread, I have made no bones that the behaviour of the people who actually harassed the victim's family was deeply shitty.

But those are different people.

You are condemning women as abusers simply for reacting rationally to the knowledge that sometimes people reported as women are male.

I agree.

I doubt that KIS thinks she can 'always tell' somebody's sex from a head shot and hope that she had more reason to initially remove a woman's name from the list.

However, unclear police, court and media reporting has introduced uncertainty around the integrity of data. Sex matters and reporting on sex should be reliable.

I haven't "condemned women as abusers".

I'm pointing out the tactic of "look what you made me do" is - as too many women know - straight out of an abusers charter.

You are also hugely minimising what happened as "considering" or "reacting rationally".

A private musing to yourself is one thing. Posting publicly on social media that you think this poor woman is a man, often not with neutral or considered language, because of her appearance is extremely distasteful - for many reasons - and extremely distressing for her family.

Using the poor behaviour of men and TRAs as an excuse to justify the abuse this woman suffered even after death is just... To me I can't even fathom that mindset.

As I said in the same post you replied to:

As you will of course know from reading this thread, I have made no bones that the behaviour of the people who actually harassed the victim's family was deeply shitty.

So I consider your statement

Using the poor behaviour of men and TRAs as an excuse to justify the abuse this woman suffered even after death

To be manipulative and dishonest

No one is excusing abuse.

You are dishonestly conflating women on FWR noting the reason people now question whether a woman in the news is in fact female is that people reported as women are not always now female with abuse of a specific woman by other people on a different site.

The point is that no one should be questioning the sex of a dead person.

I think there are very specific people who can be blamed for lack of clear reporting on sex.

Unfortunately we are unavoidably placed in that situation if we need to collect data and there is reason to doubt the integrity of the information available.

No you're not. You choose that position.

No, I was responding to a post (not yours, another poster) that said "if men weren't pretending to be women, this wouldn't have happened".

I disagree with that statement for reasons I have explained.

You have taken issue with it and decided I am applying my response to every single poster on FWR (which would of course include myself) with a basis that remains a mystery to me.

In front of greiving relatives, or in a nasty way, of course not.

But Never? Why not?

And for how long is that prohibition in place?

Whose interests are served by making sex unsayable?

Any other meaningful questions one can no longer ask?

The position of needing to have clear data to analyse to understand male violence against women?

If you do it, I'll judge you. It's that simple.

It’s a list of dead women. Murdered by men. Sex is relevant.