Trans woman murdered in Georgia, and an assault in England

You don't get it.

You just...don't...get....it.

It's not about 'trans' per se. It's about MALES. Males committing offences, mainly against women and children, and us understandably not wanting males in our safe single sex spaces.

MALES.

Not 'trans'.

But M.A.L.E.S. Males.

Sorry @EasternStandard what am I not correct on? My post was aimed at the OP.

’But for some reason crimes are no longer of interest to mumsnet feminist board users/jk rowling unless a trans person is somehow involved?‘

Given that J.K. Rowling funded an entire rape crisis centre from her own money that’s a pretty silly thing to try to claim.

You're not correct on this. The pp has kindly posted some links for you.

There are plenty of threads and upset about general male violence against women.

Which does actually feed into women and girls needing single sex spaces

But for some reason crimes are no longer of interest to mumsnet feminist board users/jk rowling unless a trans person is somehow involved?

In case you haven't noticed, you're on a Sex and Gender discussion board, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that most threads discuss topics relating to that.

Do you haunt the Doghouse board to complain that they don't focus on cats enough for your liking?

Anyway, in case you've also failed to notice (understandable, as you've been so busy excusing male TRA violence against women again) :

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5165484-gisele-pelicot-utterly-floored-by-this?page=1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5169596-i-hate-it-when-they-name-a-law-after-a-woman-domestic-abuse-specialists-in-999-rooms

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5170036-donkey-charity-receives-more-donations-than-four-leading-domestic-abuse-charities-combined

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5170099-depressing-male-behaviour-and-apologists

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5168328-mayor-belittling-gisele-pelicots-rapes?page=1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5171406-for-the-first-time-the-international-criminal-court-has-concluded-that-an-armed-group-specifically-targeted-women

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5168758-mohamed-el-fayed?page=1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5169811-david-carrick-victims-are-crowdfunding

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5170209-times-girls-aged-14-now-make-up-the-most-common-group-to-report-rape-to-the-police?page=1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5168878-the-national-shame-of-englands-maternity-service-harm-normalised

All nowt to do with trans.

Horrific that two people were murdered and I feel for their family and friends having to deal with this.
As far as I can see, the lesson learned is the same as always - men are violent.

Have you missed the discussion about Gisèle Pelicot, drugged by her husband and raped at least 83 times?

The ongoing discussion about Neil Gaiman, famous author accused of sexual abuse, and his refusal to speak about the allegations?

The athlete Rebecca Cheptegei, the athlete set on fire and killed by her ex?

These are crimes that have been much discussed on here recently that spring to mind. We talk about crimes against women, as this is a feminist board. These crimes are overwhelmingly committed by men (however they identify). You may notice the three recent ones I mentioned don't involve trans people

What a bonkers assertion.

Posters on this board regularly talk about lots of different examples of VAWG. Many involve men who haven't got a transgender identity as well as those who do.
Unfortunately, whenever women try to talk about VAWG they are targeted as transphobes (even if they aren't talking about TW) e.g. the FiLiA conference, to name but one.

The word you're looking for is women. Look it up.

Male violence is the issue. Trans identified men commit sexual and violent offences at at least the same rate as other men. They are currently being allowed into women's toilets, changing rooms, prisons and rape crisis centres even though their offending rate shows they are just as likely to be a danger to women as any other man. This is a particular issue at the moment but it is not the only area of women's rights that most of us are fighting for.

Oh, I think women are expected to centre trans individuals at all times, in rape crisis centres, in changing rooms, in schools. It's no wonder there's the same expectation on a feminism board on a site for women. Entitlement, displayed bold as brass. No surprise there.

You don't need 'a word for that' we all understand perfectly well what men and women means.

I'm not sure what you're expecting from the 'Feminism Sex and Gender' board but yes it is likely to be about gender issues as that was what it was separated out for. The Feminism chat board has plenty on male violence and rape, such as the horrendous crimes against Gisele Pelicot if that's what you're interested in discussing. I didn't think so.....

Funny, I could say the same about gender critical activists who would appear to relish at the opportunity to report back here or on twitter anytime a trans or trans-ally has been accused or suspected or something.

Because apparently 'it never happens'. They just want to be in a female space merely to pee/get changed and their reasons for being in such spaces is never ever nefarious.

@Christinapple I think you are intentionally misrepresenting us. We absolutely DO post and petition against all of those crimes you say we are not interested in - most of us are involved in WRN and similar organisations, local political parties and speak with our MPs and police commissioners regularly about those incidents. It is precisely because of our knowledge of the statistics and the failure of the local police and government bodies to prioritise the huge and every growing issue of MVAWG that we are peeved that every single crime involving a transperson, however tangentially, is headlined in SM.

The issue is that you, and others like you, only look for the threads where trans victims are highlighted so you can play this game of ‘GC women only care if there is a trans person because they’re bigots’. You have no idea who we are and what we are doing off line to work with vulnerable women and girls, to enhance the lives of young women in our local communities or what our own personal experiences are as actual victims of such crimes.

Very striking.

I don’t think anyone is arguing for that either.

But OP clearly does believe that GC feminists/terves/Mumsnetters are responsible for inciting crimes against transgender people, otherwise why come here to scold us for male violence?

I don't think anyone is arguing against safeguarding trans identified individuals.
I'm arguing against women and girls being used as human shields and/or validation tools on their behalf.
Each and every murder is a tragedy. Male violence is a scourge on humanity.

I see another article has been added to this thread.
It's a sad fact that there are nasty people out there doing nasty things. Whether victims are trans(-identified) or not, society has some awful examples of this.
As PPs have said though, the problem here seems to be one of forced-teaming, where crimes against transwomen are positioned as a subset of crimes against women.
The public then has its heartstrings pulled because of the "marginalised few" framing that this creates.

Whilst I do feel incredible sympathy towards victims of violent crimes and murder (male or female, trans or not), I strongly object to this manipulation of my sympathy in the press. And to the appropriation of VAWG. Yes, there are people who believe that TWAW but there are also people who don't. When reporting on VAWG it's important to stick to facts, not beliefs.

Here's a great example of the nonsense currently coming out of the press:

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2024/sep/18/teresa-margolles-fourth-plinth-review-transgender

In particular, the screenshot below. Obviously, Jonathan Jones? No. Stop trying to gaslight me into upholding a belief that I don't. I do not believe that everyone has a gender identity, ergo I do not believe that these unfortunate victims are women. So including them in the 20,000 offends me. It's an appropriation.

Oh and 🤢😢 to using fluids from dead bodies as part of art (the article says that this artist does this in other art projects). That is both disgusting and incredibly disrespectful to those who have died. When I read it, it reminded me of the handbag straps that I saw in Auschwitz, that had been woven from the hair of dead victims of the atrocities committed there.

The autogenerated ‘related story’ about a transwomen murdered by another ‘downlow’ boyfriend is strikingly similar, yet was charged under a new law that sought to protect people with a trans identity (the first conviction of it’s type) so I’m going out on a limb here and speculating that men who resort to murder after being publicly exposed for having had a same-sex relationship are neither encouraged by nor deterred by new legislation relating to transgender people.

Internalised homophobia (and fear of societal homophobia) is a very destructive thing.

I’d like to think there is a way to preserve women’s spaces, sports and services for female people whilst still fighting against homophobia and also legally protecting people with a gender non-conforming appearance from targeted violence (including transwomen).

Perhaps OP can suggest a productive way forward that doesn’t involve pretending that reproductive sex is a changeable category (because that idea really isn’t working out well for female people)?

@CryptoFascistMadameCholet that is such a sad tale - clearly the killer/BF was wrestling with internalised homophobia that meant that, although Kesaria felt they could now be out and proud, the BF absolutely was not happy to have his sexuality up for debate in a public forum.

I can see both sides (not the consequent murder) but can see how BF felt betrayed and angry at having his status published without permission, the feeling that perhaps Kesaria was trying to make him come out about their relationship without thought for what that may mean for/to him, but driven by the need to be publicly acknowledged by ones’ partner.

It’s one thing for Kesaria to have felt that new laws protected them so they could be (even more) open about their lives, but another for the BF to feel that he was publicly humiliated and/or exposed. It would not have been unusual for a man in his shoes to attempt suicide in those circumstances, so it was a tragedy waiting to happen whichever way it unfolded. Just awful for Kesaria’s family, but also for the BF and his family.

As an aside, here are the autogenerated ‘related stories’ from the IBTimes site…

If we include the main story on the page it adds up to a total of 2 transgender people murdered and 3 non transgender people murdered by 2 transgender murderers (those victims are 1 woman and 2 men, one of the men was profoundly disabled).

All of the 4 murderers* are male, 2 are transwomen and 2 are the ‘downlow’ boyfriends of transwomen.

*3 of the perpetrators have been convicted of murder and the 4th has been charged and is awaiting trial, so I guess not yet officially a murderer.

What a strange thread - poor OP seems awfully muddled!

Funnily enough I had just read a news article about the horrific murder of Kesaria Abramidze following a link from a trans subreddit.

In trans community parlance Kesaria was dating a ‘downlow’ man who wanted to keep the relationship secret. The murder occurred 2 hours after Kesaria posted a photo of them together on FB stories.

I don’t think the Georgian law re: local councils having the right to refuse Pride events was a catalyst but I guess we’ll have to wait for the trial.

(Condolences to Kesaria’s family and friends 💐)

An average of 2 women are murdered every 3 days by their domestic partners or ex-partners. Because they were women.

Do you think exposure to a culture which is structurally sexist/misogynist influences this violence @Christinapple ?

Not uncommon with Americans, sadly.