Depressing male behaviour and apologists

[Hobbes8]

Just home from a night out and needed a rant before bed. I had a lovely evening at a gig with 3 friends (all of us mid-forties to early fifties, none single). We met outside the venue afterwards where one of my friends was having a smoke and chatting to the support band. Went for a drink opposite and said maybe see you over there.

The four of us get drinks and settle ourselves at a table, and shortly afterwards one of the guys we’d been chatting to came over and sat down. A few minutes later his friend comes over and sits down. The friend proceeds to be a complete knob - deliberately provocative. I was the other end of the table largely ignoring him, but one of my friends kept engaging in his wanky conversation, seemingly trying to change his mind about his awful views.

A young woman (bar staff) came over and said it was nearly time for last orders and he was fucking vile to her whilst pretending to be twinkly and banter-y and something inside me just snapped and I called him out on it. He didn’t react well at all and I ended up asking him to leave our table, which he refused to do. So I drank up and left and one of my friends came with me…but the other two just stayed, appeasing the menfolk like we are supposed to do, and I’m honestly so depressed by it all.

Why are they giving this arsehole the time of day? He’s not entitled to our time.

Then whilst we were waiting at the bus stop some drunk fucking man asked us for a cigarette, and when we said we didn’t smoke turned abusive. Of course.

Most people are sheep, both women and men. Boats must not be rocked.

We've all been there! So depressing isn't it? Well done, by the way, calling him out and not 'complying'.

Ugh that’s exactly what it felt like. No one cared about this guy, but he felt entitled to ruin my night and no one backed me up when I tried to stop him.

The reason I mentioned none of us were single is cos in my twenties you’d put up with this crap to be nice and available in case your friend wanted a shag…but why are we still doing it now? We’d have all had a nicer time if he’d just fucked off.

Some women comply because they have a tend & befriend response instead of fight or flight when someone's giving an agressive vibe.

That said, I can understand it in a hostage situation but not with some nobhead in a bar where you can get up & leave him to it.

I can’t relate to the comment about being in 20s, sounds like the type of bloke I’d never tolerate to be around. So I’m sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick as the whole situation sounds like something I’d not be near and may not get.

also, you mention twinkly and bantz. Is it possible other people interpreted it differently? I know I am offended by things other people don’t care about. Probably even more so in a feminist context.

some women are big fans of men no matter how they behave. Sad but true.

finally….someone I worked with was in a band. The one time I went, I was surprised that women were hanging around looking like they wanted to shag one of the guys in the band. Just a casual pub band who play for fun…and they had groupies! I didn’t attend again 😂 but my point is, the dynamic sounds like drunk people who might want a shag, even though they’re not single.

I don't get where the maleness is relevant. One of you said "maybe see you over there" clearly indicating further contact being welcome, so it's not like he barged in to your table uninvited. Both men and women can have "awful views" and once you were all together, I'm not sure why he was beholden to obey your order to move table.

Some people are knobs. It happens.

I've never tolerated this crap and also would have asked him to leave. If they refuse I get the bar manager. I'm sometimes told I'm being rude; so social convention means some women put up with it. Other times it might be down to fear of aggression.

I totally get it. I once slapped a creep upside the head with a restaurant menu because he was saying vile things and making a meal a miserable experience for everyone at the table, yet nobody else would call him out for it. I repeatedly asked him to stop and it only made him worse. He was sitting right across from, spewing his poison in my face, so finally I just snapped. I'm not proud of going that far, but he did shut his gob.
People (and it's not just women, there were several men at that table) are often so uncomfortable with conflict they'll let the most outrageous behaviour go.

I've been in this position at other times, being the only one willing to confront an asshole while others just looked at their feet and pretended it wasn't happening. They would thank me later after the asshole was gone, but where were they when I could have used the back-up?

Yeah, I’ve been in similar situations a few times. Once when I was in my 20s, in a bar with two female friends and some guys we’d just met. One guy was so gross (going on about how he wanted to fuck the three of us in the toilet) that I refused to keep talking to them and wanted to leave. I left. The two female friends I was with thought I was overreacting and stayed with them. It was a crap ending to a good night out.

Really? You don’t get why the maleness is relevant? This is the feminist board. And once we’d invited him to join us we’d consented to all further behaviour, up to and including him calling me a cunt? Is that really what you meant?

My friends who stayed are, of course, entitled to spend time with whoever they like. I’m disappointed they chose this misogynistic arsehole over me, but that their choice.

You didn't say that he'd called you a cunt. Sorry I failed to read your mind.

You said he had "awful views" and was "vile" to the bar staff. Both of those say nothing about maleness - both men and women can have awful views and be vile. Obviously it's up to you how specific you want to be, but one can only respond to the information given.

I think the age old quote "men are scared of women laughing at them, women are scared of men killing them" is relevant. I dont put up with obnoxious behaviour from men anymore, but id have to be very secure and feel very safe to have a go at a random guy in public because i'd be scared of him getting violent (which has happened in the past, ive had a glass thrown at me for saying a guy was being homophobic, which he was, and he just couldnt deal with it)

Its a weird thing, I remember a long long time ago, hitch hiking, we were two young women. Once we got a lift from slightly older men. They said they'd bring us to X. They proceeded to take a detour down a very isolated road, I was fucking furious, my friend got friendlier and friendlier. Nothing happened but looking back, it was deliberate, the fear they induced. We reacted completely differently. We never discussed it but she probably thought she could charm them out of raping us. Maybe she was right or maybe my hostility worked?

No way can you charm rapists out of raping you. They are certainly not choosing victims because they lack charm, so why would charm change their minds? But being a less acquiescent victim might factor into the decision. They might figure they could easily handle two passive women by scaring them into submission, but not one passive victim and one aggressive victim.
Some rapists are more risk adverse than others.

My mom had a similar story. She and her sister were hitchhiking and two guys tried the same trick.
My aunt threw the car door open and started throwing their shit from the backseat onto the road while screaming threats at them. So they let them out.

Perhaps nothing would have saved us.Maybe we were always physically safe. We behaved differently to a perceived threat.

Some women’s reaction to that kind of situation is to fawn - it’s not a conscious choice anymore than freezing is.

Yeah, it's possible they could have just been trying to scare you or hoping for consensual sex.
I used to work for a pollster and had to do in person interviews in people's homes. One place turned out to be occupied by several male students who made great sport of telling me they had girls tied up in the basement, among other charming remarks. Cue Beavis and Butthead type laughter. They'd been hitting the bong and thought they were hilarious.

I’d said he was vile to a young woman. He did that because he could, as lots of men often do. I recognise misogyny and male entitlement when I see it, and I don’t expect people to minimise and dismiss it on the feminist board, of all places. Believe women.

Thanks to those of you that have shared similar experiences, and I’m sorry that you’ve had them (although of course we all have, regardless of whether we wilfully explain them away).

Thanks also for explaining the fawning or befriending response. It helps. I’ve been really struggling to come to terms with the way my friends behaved (they were so engrossed in these men they didn’t even notice me and another friend leaving). I’ll try and stop judging them, and reserve my judgement strictly for knobhead male behaviour!

I'm a fawner on occasion. It almost feels out of body sometimes, I hear myself do a horrendously unnatural high pitched laugh. And I will feel quite sick / tainted afterwards. I absolutely know why I do it and it's pretty depressing that so many years, therapy and knowledge about trauma doesn't fully undo.

I'm grateful for women like you though! And I'd have definitely left with you.

I believe that fawning is a survival skill.

There are times when fawning is a wise strategy.
For example, if a man is being sexually aggressive and you sense it is about puffing up his ego, fawning may satisfy him without the need to go further. This is often the case in sexual harassment. If, for example, you're alone with a coworker without help nearby and he makes a pass, you might be safest at that moment to tell him something reassuring like that you'd love to give him a go but you are in love with somebody else and want to be faithful.
So please don't feel bad. Your response could be about good instincts as to what will placate an aggressor.

That’s such a kind thing to say - thank you! I needed this…

Thank you for the thread. It's always useful for women to unpick instinctive responses to men - especially the creepy ones.

And once we’d invited him to join us we’d consented to all further behaviour

This is the key part really isn't it? Men over stepping boundaries because they have had some small interaction with a woman and weren't at that point told to fuck off.

It plays into our socialised sense of 'niceness' - he's not done anything that bad so we don't feel we can assert boundaries.

Why do we have to wait for something bad to happen? So many times I've had some random man take the edge off a nice night out because he seemed convinced we wanted his attention when we didn't, we were just too polite to say/we had been happy to chat before he got gobby and predatory.

Consent for someone being part of your evening is like consent for anything else - you can change your mind and consent to one thing doesn't mean consent to everything.

Kudos to you for speaking up OP. Your friends may have been scared to.