Lindsay Clancy case: was it evil, or severe mental illness?

She saw Jennifer Tufts the day before she slaughtered her children by the way.

What a bizarre manipulation. I never said anything of the sort. My point was that LC should be considered as well as the children.

Yes I don’t like the blame on PC either. Just generally it’s come up a fair bit.

Never at any point have I said that the murders are the sole evidence of psychosis. I have pointed out all of the evidence that describes the clinical
pathway towards a viable psychosis diagnosis.

the deaths of the children are the outcome of misdiagnosis and lack of belief of her own words.

I don’t think you are very clear at all as to how psychosis can present itself. However whether she was or wasn’t, the evidence presented does provide clear reasonable doubt of criminal responsibility, because every single item pointed to a significant mental health crisis, and there was no evidence to support any viable alternative motive.

its about the clinical position of the individual to be legally sane in killing their children but also legally meeting the threshold of institutional detention due to being actively suicidal.

You are conflating two seperate things here. As you say in your next post

Actually the issue is not whether she was psychotic, it’s whether she was too unwell to appreciate the criminality or wrongfulness of her conduct, OR to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law.

Someone can meet the threshold of institutional detention due to being actively suicidal and also be able to appreciate that they are doing wrong in murdering someone and/or able to control their behaviour.

The two are compatible.

And other cases are relevant in that you are suggesting that each snd every person who takes their own life after murdering another person or persons is not criminally responsible for that murder and should, for example if they attempt suicide but are unsuccessful, be found not guilty by reason of insanity. I honestly believe, if you do believe this, you are in a tiny minority.

Were the 9/11 hijackers not criminally responsible? Was Salman Abedi not criminally responsible for the Manchester Arena murders? Family annihalators like Christopher Foster? They all took their own lives. And yes, especially with school shootings, often warning signs have been missed. That doesn’t automatically mean that the killer is not criminally responsible. Just because a situation might have been avoided with appropriate action by others does not automatically absolve the killer of all responsibility.

@BingoJingo None of this would rise to the level of a section even if PC had reported it - or her mother whom testifed that she had reported thoughts of harming the children.

Sorry but this is nonsense. PC and her mother didn’t have this knowledge but post partum psychosis is a psychiatric emergency. If a mother reports late onset (ie within 12 months of birth) suicidal ideation and thoughts of harming her children - that would absolutely be sectionable. The crux is danger to self or others and this was both.

You’ve phrased this to sort of imply clinicians were aware LC expressed thoughts of harming her children. Just to clarify (at least as far as I’ve heard, correct me if I’m wrong) she didn’t disclose this to any medical professionals including the one she saw the day before she murdered her children.

I’m bemused why you think LC being white has affected how her husband (also white) responded to the situation he found himself in. I’m actually unconvinced that people believe white women don’t kill their children. Society doesn’t expect any woman to kill her child but I’m pretty sure everyone is aware that it occasionally does happen in all races.

Not if she denies it to the psychiatrist it doesn't. Or should they just go on the say so of Patrick?

but her mother is a woman, so I don’t think any blame will be attached or any suggestion that her mother acted wrongly. I hope to be proved wrong.

Just in case you accidentally missed the rest of my post where I said

She denied to Jennifer Tufts, her psychiatrist, having a plan to take her own life or harm anyone else and never revealed that she had thoughts about harming the children.
Jennifer Tufts also testified that LC never told her about manic episodes, nor about hearing voices or having other signs of psychosis.
She felt close to feeling suicidal, hopeless or like she was going to die.

Jennifer saw her the day before she killed the children. Patrick also testified that she was having a good day on the day of their deaths, building snowmen with the children.

Please tell us what Patrick or Jennifer Tufts should have done in this scenario. You appear to be deliberately selecting elements of information to misrepresent the actual events.

No I am not suggesting that her mother acted wrongly.

I am just asserting that if Patrick is to be admonished for not reporting LC's intrusive thoughts about her children, why is her mother not having the same admonishment. Her mother testified at the trial that she had thoughts of harming her children.

People are just climbing over themselves to blame Patrick.

Can you get someone sectioned if a psychiatrist says no? A spouse can’t just say do this can they

Exactly of course you can't....

Which is why the blaming of Patrick for not reporting her intrusive thoughts is so reductive and wrong, as she denied any thoughts of harm to the treating psychiatrist.

She saw Dr Tufts the day before she murdered her children. There were no signs of psychosis or thoughts of harm. Seems like everyone else is responsible apart from Lindsay Clancy for the murder of her children.

You can wrap it up in any way you like, but your comments come as close to victim blaming that I have ever seen.

Whatever Patrick feels or needs to process in order to try and come to terms with the horror he has lived through, is his right to feel.

It does not alter or have a bearing on the facts of this case.

Never at any point have I said that the murders are the sole evidence of psychosis.

You said of the murders “it is that action that precisely determines just how unwell she was”.

it is convenient that you exclude ‘killing your children’ on the list of acceptable behaviour or evidence of a mentally unwell woman achieving 1 or 2 above, when it is that action that precisely determines just how unwell she was.

A mental health crisis which doesn’t reach the threshold for NGRI and a lack of know motive for murder are not sufficient to show lack of criminal responsibility.

No, I think if you read through all the comments on this thread, you’ll find that an awful lot of people really do not understand psychosis and that’s what I’m referring to.

According to Google, involuntary psychiatric holds or civil commitments in the U.S. cannot be finalized without medical or mental health professionals, but a spouse or private citizen can initiate the legal process.

Are you trying to suggest that Patrick could have got her sectioned without her being assessed by mental health experts?

I don't have a problem at all with Europeans discussing American cases. Why would I? I'm a European. Presumeably most people on this thread are. You're the one who said that you 'don’t personally indulge misogynist telescopic philanthropy which focuses in the children to the exclusion of LC'. This is a nebulous, ill-defined configuration of words which I took to mean
'using long-distance, high-profile charity to ignore the immediate suffering of women close to home'
in which case if you're not actually in America, isn't that what you're doing?
Feel free to let me know if you meant something else by this phrase.

I never said your perspective was misogynistic. Why would I say this? I think the confusion here is not using clear terms.

'You have a lot to complain about women I wonder why that is. If you simply don’t like them, this may not be the forum for you'.

Are you suggesting that because I don't share some women's reaction to the Lindsay Clancy case and because I don't completely buy that she was suffering from psychosis that I'm not a woman? There are plenty of women like me who share this viewpoint. And men as it happens.
My position is that I'm not as yet convinced there is enough evidence to show she was psychotic. Mentally unwell definitely and she needed to get help.

I've been posting on this forum for years. I don't feel you have the right to tell anyone they shouldn't post here just because you disagree with them or because you've erroneously decided I don't like women (based on what I have no idea).

I'm interested in hearing other people's views on the case and seeing why they have come to different conclusions to me and thankfully that there are a lot of people on this thread sharing the same desire to learn more about the case and engage in a respectful way.

And the implications of that are what exactly if she denied having such thoughts to her treating psychiatrist?

Here you go again, you just cannot stop with the victim blaming can you?

Apologies I was unclear. I’m agreeing with you. I don’t think PC or LC’s mother acted wrongly. I’m saying that if someone says one did, then they should judge both. But my experience on MN is that people will fall over themselves to find a reason not to judge a woman when they would have no qualms judging a man who did the same thing.

I think a spouse can apply for a section 12e then the Judge can initiate an assessment or section, in an emergency you call 911. The whole family must feel dreadful and wonder should they have done anything differently.