Narcissist female friend in close group - An Empath's ongoing tale

But those people are adults. They are capable, I assume, of refusing to let everyone pay for their coffee?

I imagine she sees herself as a champion of the poor and oppressed, with a mental relative deservedness list that has you at the bottom as the person with the biggest space and the most disposable income. She probably thinks she espouses that "from each what they can afford; to each what they need" way of thinking. Unless these people really are in financial hardship?

You sound unbearable. No wonder friendship groups fall out with you regularly

Its not a battle between good and evil. Some people are just difficult busy bodies, other people (like you) want everyone to be lovely and get upset when its not.
I bet the other lady thinks you are passive aggressive and a bully for cutting her out. But you are entitled not to like her or what her around.

Just grow a pair and say 'No' like the rest of us do when we feel someone is taking the piss?

I think... TBH... you're embarrassing yourself.

So much drama and waffle. “Narc”, “empath” 🙄

Yeah, like a pp, I'm deeply wary of anyone calling themselves an empath. In my experience, people who think they're 'empaths' are just as self absorbed as narcissistic people, utterly exhausting, and slightly unstable.

It sounds like a serious fixation on 'narcs' on your part with all your terminology usage, and your framing - like it's eaten up your life in a very unhealthy way, and you're obsessed with it. The best (and easiest!) thing to do is to just take a big step back from the group, stop investing your time and energy into it, and make new friends to expand your social circle.

(Out of curiosity, as you're Christian, have you prayed about it?)

Took the words right out of my mouth re people who call themselves ‘empaths’ 🙄.

This all sounds exhausting and certainly not something that grown women should be investing so much time, energy and angst in - that was like reading my daughter's WhatsApp messages between her and her friends 10 years ago when they were teenagers. My goodness. So much introspection and over thinking - not healthy.

Every group has its bossy ones and its go with the flow ones, and no-one can make you do anything without your permission. Groups ebb and flow, adults don't need to be part of a herd - put out a call for an event, ask if anyone fancies coming, get numbers, and leave it at that. Setting up side groups and leaving people out is just silly - and please stop with the narc and empath labels. You're all just people with different personalities, some you'll get on with better than others, as simple as that - no need to play at being a psychologist or giving someone a good or bad label. Cool your jets.

Hmm you seem to have a high opinion of yourself (and empath who just wants to do good for others) and have completely demonised the other woman! If this has happened to you before in a group dynamic, have you ever considered that the common denominator here is you?

I don't know anyone who behaves like this in real life or who gets so caught up in group friendships. I have friends, some who I see individually and some who meet up in groups of three or more. There are no fallings out, accusations of narcissism or complaints about being an empath and 'carrying the load' for others. We're just friends who meet up, have a few glasses of wine, have a laugh, get the kids together to play, have couples night's out now and again. It's all very easy and pleasant as friendships should be. I don't know how people have the energy for all this dysfunctional group dynamics, it sounds exhausting!

This is why the internet is not such a good thing.

She sounds selfish and you sound very dramatic and very emotionally draining. None of these are great traits but we are all humans with lots of flaws.

The Internet based overthinking is doing you absolutely no favours. Just put distance in between you.

all this weird analysis and over thinking!
"doing all the organising, paying at times, hosting, meal prep for meet ups etc , a lot of the time"
You need to ask yourself why you are doing this? These are not your cheerleaders, nor are they your family.
You say the woman didn't pay for your lunch because the narc 'told her not to' but you must realise they had a conversation and the woman decided herself not to pay. Grown ups don't tell their friends what to do this way. Have a rethink and do other things, with other people. Focus on yourself.

You sound very narcissistic yourself.

Do people still call themselves empaths? It’s a pretty naff description nowadays and generally turns people off, There’s something a bit self appraising and smug about it. Just say you’re a generally decent person. I have a number of friends but we’re not a ‘group’, maybe it would be healthier to have your friends on a more one-to-one (or two) basis, rather than some kind of blob.

You’re fighting a losing fight if you don’t have it in you fight back properly and with creativity. The fact this has happened in two friendship groups makes me think it’s not a case of some evil creatures invading your life and more that people like you and people like them are naturally at odds. You’re a people pleaser (not an empath) and they’re not. And you don’t like that.

If you’ve engineered two groups and both have gone wrong then what is the common factor here 🤷‍♀️

In both cases it sounds like the “narc” had quite a lot of support within the group, but in the first case they were “flying monkeys” and in the second they are being manipulated.

Is it possible they actually agree with her?

Either leave the group, or stay in it, stop trying to divide it up and learn to rub along with the supposed “narc”. If you don’t want to host all the time just say so, no need to carve her out. If you do that then you will look like a drama queen and you will lose out.

It might be real for you. But you are not an 'empath'.

I can’t advise because it would require you to be rather underhand and manipulative in response to everyone in the group over time. You need to undermine her while also making the group see that she’s the unreasonable one and that would take a fine tightrope balance. You’ve gone the open way which is admirable but without laying the groundwork with the others (comments here and there, pointing out things she’s doing, getting them to pull away from her towards you) it will make you look like the person suddenly setting off the bomb for no good reason. You needed to make people view you sympathetically first.

Are you sure you are an empath? I'm not sure from your posts

Stop doing what you are told to do and do what you WANT to do, regardless of the outcome

Given that this has happened twice I think you need to look at the part you play in this dynamic. It’s easy to diagnose people as narcissists by reading stuff online and to label yourself an empath but that’s not how you come across in your post. Get some proper therapy to reflect on your own behaviour and why these situations keep repeating themselves.

Clearly you are upset about whatever is happening with your friendship group, so I’m sorry about that.

Kindly though, if two groups you have been in over the last decade have both turned out the same way I think you really have to take a step back and consider how your actions are contributing to that, as you are the common denominator.

That’s not to say everything is your fault. But if you keep doing the same thing over and over and keep getting the same result then you have to consider what to change.

I agree with previous posters, I don’t think that terms like “empath” and “narc” are at all helpful. You are setting up a narrative of good and evil which won’t help you to get what you want.

Your posts aren't that easy to follow but from what I gather you seem to take a lead role in organising (and paying for?) lots of social gatherings but feel aggrieved that you aren’t either appreciated enough and haven’t ended up as de facto “group leader”.

In both cases someone else, who hasn’t organised and doesn’t contribute the same amount financially has ended up with more social cachet in the group?

You can’t change other people’s behaviour, you are only responsible for your own.

So, my advice for the next group (as this one seem to be imploding) is to stop organising more than your share of meet ups and stop paying for things. If there are 4 in the group you should limit yourself to hosting/paying 25% of the time. Step back from any more than that and allow others to have a turn.

Then you won’t feel aggrieved or taken advantage of.

It is worth noting that group leaders emerge naturally. Regardless of who started the group, or who does the most work, there is often one or two central figures who everyone else gravitates to. If you aren’t that person, even if you’d like to be, that can be a bit disappointing but if you burn down the group with unnecessary drama you won’t have a group at all.

In the meantime, if you don’t want to host, don’t.
if you don’t want to pay, don’t.

But don’t do those things and then feel resentful.

You say you are religious, you might want to consider how you are demonising this friend of yours you have now decided is a “narc”. From an outside perspective your actions could be taken as pretty manipulative.

Have you not got a job? You seem to have too much time for building dramas in your head.