Greens adopt policy treating Zionism as racism (part 2)

There is also point where the recipient is entitled to decide enough is enough too.

The perpetrators of 7/10 despise what they perceive as weakness. They don’t want mediation and compromise, they want a holy jihad and the obliteration of Israel and ultimately, the West.

No one in their right mind wants war and suffering, but I don’t believe you can reason with these fanatics. The only thing that will stop them is to bring them harshly to heel. They aren’t the sort of people you can sit down in a room with and work out an acceptable solution with - they just want it their way.

I can’t help feeling there’s a huge amount of incredible naivety amongst the marchers and supporters of the pro Palestine groups. They see it in very simplistic terms; powerful modern industrialised nation against simple farmers and villagers. They don’t see the organisation, arming and anti democratic manipulation that is being fed to them. Images of dead and injured children make fantastic propaganda, and in no way trivialising the horror, the loss of those innocent lives are a direct consequence of the Oct 7 attack.

Did Hamas not realise or think about the consequences when they launched it? Did they truly think Israel would just roll over and accept it? Or was this a very cynical attempt by the jihadists to intentionally reignite the powder keg, knowing exactly what the results would be and the collateral damage caused, because there WAS peace before. Admittedly, a shaky vulnerable one, but peace nonetheless.

The people of Israel just want to be left alone. The Palestinians are the ones electing extremists, showing cartoon characters becoming suicide bomber martyrs, and putting instructions on how to make pipe bombs in primary school workbooks.

For these people, apparently Jewish people and Israel have no connection, yet not supporting Gazan terrorism is Islamophobic. None of it makes any sense at all.

Is there a reason you haven’t given me a sign that you are (presumably) responding to my post here? Perhaps you didn’t want a reply? Or maybe because you’re well aware that I haven’t “excused” any horrors at all?

Look. You said this: “I reiterate that had Israel not reacted the way it had there would be a lot more support for Israel than it has right now” - which clearly implies that you think Israel could have responded in a way that would both have stopped Hamas from organising another Oct 7th as they had promised to do, while not causing people outside Israel to criticise them - but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone describe what that alternative and preferable action would have been.

So why don’t you give it a go? What action could Israel have taken against Hamas that would have both freed the hostages and prevented a new attack?

(And then you should stand for the Knesset on that basis - I’m sure lots of Israelis would love to know too 😏)

EXACTLY. Lots of 'Israel should have done better' - don't say what they SHOULDN'T have done, say what perfect flawless action they SHOULD have taken. Because nothing is good enough besides Israel accepting murders and terrorist attacks. I ask these people - how happy would you be if you government didn't attack to defend your country in the wake of the deadliest terrorist attack in your history? Would you think 'fair enough' and wait to be kidnapped from your home, tied up with your children and set on fire?

The same people apparently don't think Palestine should have 'done better' by, I don't know, not committing psychopathic terroristic bloodshed?

Yes - obviously I’m not expecting an actual response to this from @dwordle
At best there’ll be yet another “Well they shouldn’t have (whatever)” but never something specific that they should have done. There never is.

Which, sadly, indicates that these “Oh if only Israel had not overreacted” posts aren’t genuine. They know very well that what they’re really saying is that Israel should have sucked it up and allowed Hamas to go on attacking. They just don’t want to say that openly.

There has been a chances in history when peace has been close. Bill Clinton was very close but unfortunately with the loss of key people we have returned to war. Look at the result, global chaos with no end in sight.

It really depends how you look at things. Create enough people that hate you and you simply increase the chances of terrorism. Create an opportunity for peace and then you have an opportunity to change.

When Iraq fell it was no surprise what followed was underhand organisations probably ex Iraqi secret services sowed terrorist activity all over the world. Then we had 9/11, then 7/11 and then October. There has been so many such incidents. We have been fighting wars ever since with no end in sight.

Wars can't be won now days, it's something Putin and Trump can't grasp.

The UK is now on its knees with rising cost of living but those sowing chaos are raking in billions. It's called disaster capitalism for a reason.

Bill Clinton is on record as saying that it was the Palestinian side whose unreasonable demands caused the failure of those talks. Not “the loss of key people” 🙄

I see you haven’t made the slightest attempt to flesh out what you think Israel should have done instead when you said this: “had Israel not reacted the way it had there would be a lot more support for Israel than it has right now” - what way should Israel have reacted in October 2023 instead?

They have the capacity to take out individuals responsible without causing regional chaos. It was both sides that failed to agree on Palestine actually....the talks still brought peace a lot closer.

I'm hoping that Netanyahu loses and a more moderate leader takes charge.Its unlikely but it's my hope. The world needs stability right now not war.

We are weeks away from the Mid Terms which means Trump is closer to being powerless and one step closer to losing his freedom.

The whole dynamic could change this year.

what way should Israel have reacted in October 2023 instead?

And why is this the question, rather than 'What should Palestine have done instead of murdering, torturing, and kidnapping thousands of innocent people?'

I also find it intriguing that some are very keen to repeatedly point out the extremist ultra Orthodox Zionists ( which I acknowledge are creating serious issues and not helping the situation) yet remain silent on the significant presence of radical Islamists in their ranks. If we are genuinely concerned about extremism undermining peace, we have to be willing to address it on all sides.

You have an entire military infrastructure embedded amongst civilians. You have hostages held in tunnels under civilian homes. You have intransigent and brutal people holding those hostages who want to use them as bargaining chips.

What do you do? Spend years taking out every Hamas fighter and leader one by one? Or getting the hostages out as fast as you can, before more of them end up dead, or with even more psychological damage than they have already?

Israel was in an impossible situation after 7th October. If they didn't act, they'd condemned 250 people to permanent captivity in horrific conditions, and Hamas (and a fair few Gazan civilians who had followed along to loot) would have got away with the most barbaric of attacks.

If they did act, they were going to be damned in the court of (misinformed) public opinion.

No you have it all wrong. They had all those hostages including children and old people but Israel should have taken a step back, breathed deeply and paused for a bit. They offered Hamas the hand of kindness and maybe sent them a nice hamper of something

Does anyone with eyes and ears really believe the Greens think that would happen?

The majority of the Greens understand exactly what would happen. However the more extremist amongst them push for a one state solution because they don't care about the consequences. It is just about ideology be it communist or Islamist to them. Some even seem to very much want those consequences to happen.

I have lived in London amongst the people that go on the hate marches and potentially vote Green now. Everything I have seen and heard in tbe last few years tells me that yes they do understand but either don't care because Israelis are evil according to them or they passionatly desire the consequences to happen in a way that is rather disturbing.

Tribalist mindset. They absolutely want it to happen. And Jews are supposed to apologise in response and politely stop existing.

“It was both sides that failed to agree on Palestine actually”

Well, I suppose to the extent that Israel didnt give the Palestinians everything they wanted, but that’s the nature of negotiations, for most people. The IRA didnt get a united Ireland after all, and that (unlike Hamas) is the ONLY constant in their demands.

I think I’m going to take Clinton’s word on why the Camp David talks failed.

As for what you think Israel could have done, you offer this, which is … interesting:
“They have the capacity to take out individuals responsible without causing regional chaos”
So … are you really saying that you think continuing the extra-judicial killings for Israel has been, IMO, rightly criticised would have been a better solution?

Do you support extra-judicial killings as a rule, and if not, why do you think Israel should resort to them?

Especially since that policy seems to have failed, since it didn’t stop the Oct 7th attacks in the first place? Or should they have been doing more of that in the past?

What did you think of the mobile phones blowing up? Is that the kind of thing you think they should do, and did you praise them for it when that happened?

Yep

And also if they did nothing (or some sort of wishy washy asking politely for permission to go into a tunnel and kill a specific person for months on end), they'd just have endless versions of 10/7 on repeat. The only reason that has only happened once is because of the response.

I think the entire situation is heartbreaking and horrible and horrifying. But I still cannot figure out what else anyone would have done that would be better. War is very, very fraught with civilian casualties, it's sadly never been otherwise.

I presume he liked this to be sarcastic but think it will be viewed by the more fuckwitt types within his party as him being a zionist

He has gotten flack already from some for not supporting their one state view