Cockroach Cafe - Autumn

And of course it’s all happening on a Friday afternoon so nothing can be anywhere near resolved till Monday.

@Podgedodge Could you use the fact that she can't change the op date until Monday, and take the weekend to persuade her that she really needs to take the date she's been offered. Perhaps invent an upcoming job change/new commitment etc that means you would be able to commit to helping her if she takes the current date but not if she delays it. A bit of a white lie to make her think something outside your control might mean that she has to do it without you there if she delays. You could even tell her she'd probably be kept in hospital for longer if you can't be there when she is discharged. Slightly underhand but it sounds like she's at risk of her health getting much worse if she doesn't get this dealt with as soon as she can.

I totally get what you’re saying @bigdogpaws , but she doesn’t care. I’ve told her this date works and I am not going to be available for another but it doesn’t matter, because she’s not having the op now or ever.
Shes fine (today) the future will take care of itself and bugger the rest of us. I’ve told her if she doesn’t take this op, that she’s on her own, I don’t want to hear about it ever again and I won’t be there if she’s brought in for an emergency. Shes fine just says she doesn’t expect me to.
Im calling her bluff, and she’s out bluffing me because of course I’ll be there and she knows it. How could I not be?

@Podgedodge the dilemma you're facing is palpable. I certainly haven't got any words of wisdom to help you, all I can say is that I know how you feel and I sympathise. It's awful.

I've been talking to a counsellor recently because I'm also facing this kind of situation and as much as my intellectual brain can appreciate my feelings about my own mother's demands are being primarily driven by Fear, Obligation and Guilt, the emotion-driven side of my brain doesn't make it any easier to put my own best interests first and allow me say "No, I'm not able to do that" when I really should say "No, I'm not able to do that."

What makes it so much worse is that while I've been in some very difficult and demanding situations in my life, for every one of them there was always the promise that as long as I work hard at it and make the right choices then things will get better. For me at least, I'm really struggling to fully appreciate that when it comes to my mother she simply isn't going to get better and there's sod all I can do to change that. She's old, she's got an extensive and ever-increasing list of things that are medically wrong with her, her quality of life is way lower than I'd want for myself, and sooner or later she's going to die.

This is the first time I'm faced with a situation where the primary source of angst and stress in my life is something that is inevitably going to get worse rather than holding out the promise of getting better. The only question is how quickly that's going to happen and how much I can cushion that eventual and inevitable end. I'm finding it very hard to reconcile the self-image I've got as someone who's capable, resilient and able to affect my life's course with the realisation that when it comes to my mother's health and eventual death, there's nothing I can really do. I know the counsellor I'm talking to is trying to point me in that direction but it's a struggle, it really is.

@JeffLebowski .
Thank you
You have expressed just how I feel so eloquently.

Sympathies. That sounds so hard.

But @Podgedodge , whilst having sympathy for her predicament, is it starting to verge on lack of capacity? Lack of insight into the consequences of decisions? It is worth having a conversation with her GP?

This is the question I keep raising (re lack of insight into consequences). But the law says we are entitled to make bad decisions and that, I think, is used to avoid labelling someone incapacitous.

If hodgepodge 's ER says. "I don't care, I don't want an operation, I'll manage, I can call the GP when I'm sore and hodgepodge will help me", I'd put money on that being accepted as evidence of capacity 😕

And tbh, no anaesthetist or surgeon is going to fight an unwilling patient onto the operating table unless it's truly life-threatening and they truly and obviously don't have capacity to refuse.

We are in the exact same position as @Podgedodgeexcept my mother has refused the surgery outright for her severe prolapse (literally hanging down between her legs). It affects her mobility and causes extreme discomfort. We have had those conversations with the GP re capacity as she has the memory span of a gnat and seems incapable of linking the fact that refusing surgery for the prolapse means that she will be in daily discomfort and have very limited mobility. But in the moment she will say she understands that but the following day we’re back to square one with her telling everyone who expresses any sympathy that ‘they won’t do anything when you’re old’. I do correct her every time that it is her decision and she has refused treatment options and she doesn’t contradict me but then says she can’t have surgery because she has to look after Dad. Unfortunately at 92 he has to look after her (we have carers too thank goodness but that is thanks to Dad who has a bit more self awareness). Again if we point out that she is not able to look after Dad and if she had the surgery she would be in a better position to it just seems to completely go over her head. The bar for saying someone has no capacity is incredibly high and unfortunately a lot of EPs seem to ‘pull themselves together’ in front of professionals and just just revert back to their normal base line with family.

Part of the problem is that these old folk can often spin a good yarn when questioned directly. The HCP believes them and doesn't see and hear them an hour later when the elderly person has forgotten it all and is back in denial.

@EclipsingYou hit the nail on the head. We had similar conversations re falls alarms. They both have falls but Mum refuses to admit she does and we usually find out by accident. We’ve even got to the of Dad agreeing to falls alarms but cancelling at tge last moment because ‘it upsets Mum’ (three times so far!! Social worker came and did a needs assessment (they’ve had several) and when she asked what would happen if one of them fell tge answer was that they’re never apart (unfortunately (for my Dad) that’s true) and the other would help to pick the other up. She just accepted that even though you can see just by looking neither is physically capable. SW said they gave ‘reasonable’ responses to all tge possible risks/problems she identified so that was that.

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRGH!
A Saturday in A&E.

Perhaps I should be more cynical 🙄😤 re assessment for capacity.
I know as far as mine are concerned that sheer bloody mindedness, blithe lack of self awareness and ability to argue black is white probably do amount to plenty of capacity yet…

Oh shit.
What's happening?
Solidarity and virtual gin on way.

@JeffLebowski my own opinion is that recognising the head v heart conflict is happening, and that the situation is causing you problems, is a massive first step in working out how to deal with it. I hope you have success with your counselling. It helped me enormously, although it didn’t feel like it at the time. It may also have helped that I am now through menopause and IDGAF is a new mantra. I have accepted I’m not able to fix everyone else, and in fact it’s not healthy for me to think I can in the first place.

There are times I do ask myself “am i a complete witch?” at a muted emotional reason to a problem someone else has (eg DH or DB), but I always come to the conclusion I’m fine. It’s not my problem to solve, I can be sympathetic and supportive without launching into action like I used to.

I have left it a day, did not mention it at all on our daily phonecall. Tomorrow I will give her the admissions clerk number and tell her she has to phone them on Monday once she’s made her mind up and then tell me what she has decided. I hope they will be quite brisk with her, and if she dithers about, will just tell her to decide as they need the operation space. I will probably phone them myself as well just to check she’s done it, although quite what I’ll do if she hasnt Im not sure.
My daughter tells me she was upset on the phone to her today about it, saying she’s scared and won’t be able to get up the stairs after or use the toilet etc, but I’m afraid that is a fact of her life I have been trying to persuade her about for quite some time and to get it sorted while she was still able. But I was just being pessimistic and ignored. My DD is much blunter than me and told MIL she was being selfish and should be thinking about the others she was hurting with her refusal to help herself so who knows, maybe tomorrow will see a change of heart…not holding my breath tho.
I must admit loss of capacity is something which has been on my mind for ages, but actually, I think this refusal to see consequences is a lifetime habit, maybe just becoming more pronounced with age.
Thank you all for the solidarity, it helps me more than I can say, it’s quite a lonely road this at times, so cocktails or mocktails for all!

@funnelfan I always use the rule of thumb, "if one of the blokes I" (used to) "work with did this, would I think they were being a dick?" as a sanity check. The expectations for women are higher but men are still, by and large, expected to not let their old ma die in a pool of blood and urine.

@MittensTheKittens BALLS. Sorry.

My ER has been going, "I really thought I was going home today!".
I said, "was this a doctor breezing past going, 'We might send you home tomorrow!', or was it someone from the discharge team asking for the number of your care company?"

As we all know, the doctors words mean little, hospital discharge is a world of madness, and it is either dangled in front of the patient for days, or sprung on them at teatime, or both!

"Maybe they want to talk to you about me having two carers, I said I wanted two carers..."

I pointed out that they don't need me for any of that. She's got a capacity & a mahoosive pile of cash, and tbh if she wants the blooming Chippendales to make her breakfast - she can afford it!

We were there for well over 2 hours. And spent a good quarter of an hour talking with one of the nurses - ER's pain patch was removed but no new one put on, so the nurse did a diligent but dignified hunt about ER's person to check the new one hadn't just gone walkabout then said she'd sort a new one with the doctors.

Not a dicky bird said to us about discharge.

"Could you do a grocery shop..." . Well, we don't know when she is going home; Waitrose deliver next day; she has a good stock of cupboard and freezer staples; and there is an M&S Food by the exit, open until 8pm...so no.

I have however got a new bag of cat food. The lovely neighbours are feeding the cat ♥️.

I have left her with a new box of chocs (on top of the double chocolate cookie we brought up with us).

Fingers crossed no emergencies as we're going away for 4 days next week!

Looks like delirium from a UTI 😩
I'm exhausted and hungry.

@MittensTheKittens that’s so scary. Delirium is terrifying because it comes on so suddenly, but it can go just as quick especially when treated quickly.
i hope you can have some food and rest.
Thinking of you.

Fluids and IV antibiotics and a ward full of old ladies who've been picked up by the paramedics.

Lol @MittensTheKittens I think you've just triggered the whole thread [cue thousand yard stare]

@MysterOfwomanY
Sorry! I didn't manage to set off an involuntary eye twitch amongst the group.

Oh no @MittensTheKittens! Sending get well wishes and a large cranberry based virtual cocktail…

Had a phone call from the hospital today where they told me in detail all that I'd seen with my own eyes when I visited yesterday.

Apparently she'd said "to ring me" about arranging care when she's discharged.

I was civil but flatly refused to start a game of Chinese Whispers between the discharge team and her care company.
The discharge team are professionals in assessing care needs and she is right there in front of them.
The care company are professionals and know her well.
She has capacity, more money than she could ever spend, and can pay for whatever she needs or wants.

Like ... And I said this to the ?nurse? ... I think she is engaging in magical thinking where if someone else who is not a medical or care professional and lives two counties away is looped in, they can somehow "make it all better".

So I was polite, but given she didn't explain why it would actually make sense...held at a No. Discharge team and care company confer, sort it out, she pays, happy days.

Hoorah for MysterofwomanY. Grab yourself a rosette and a cocktail. Absolutely the right response.