To absolutely hate this government, and what they are doing to our country? PART 2

All I can say is they should read what Jesus actually says. And the apostle Paul, who talks about entertaining ‘aliens and strangers’.

“The usual”? It was a question. Try this then:

What are the other ways to give refuge which don’t involve traffickers, violence and risk?

@LakieLady - Not all land is suitable for building on. Plus you have to look at the effect that building more and more houses plus extra schools, roads, hospitals, GP surgeries etc has on wildlife and our eco system.

There are already 69-70 million people in this country. When do you say enough? 80 million, 90 million, 100 million?

I one hundred percent take your point that it is not only those on the right wing of politics who other those who have differing political opinions to them, and I hate it when name calling is used to shut down debate, whether that's labelling and dismissing 'lefties', or the word 'fascist' being bandied about too loosely.

But on the other hand, we do have to be honest with ourselves. Danny Tommo for example is a Far-Right agitator. Bardella is a Far-Right politician. And if those on the British Right - Reform in particular - choose not to condemn those figures, and indeed to stand grinning on a stage beside them, then I do think they leave themselves open to being labelled Far-Right themselves. (And again that isn't a left/ right point - I said the same about Corbyn because of some of the people he chose to share a platform with).

So you can deny someone entering the country then?

I’m not on X, FB or Tik Tok a lot of the stuff I see about an individual is just because mn talks about that person.

But on left v right it’s becoming difficult to use as categories wrt border control.

Meloni - in press as far right, Starmer asked for advice on crossings as she got them down.

Australia - very restrictive, one of the most to be so - centre left gov

Sweden - now centre left unlikely to reverse restrictive policies

Denmark - ditto

It’s mixed. Politicians are keen to reinforce rhetoric below as they know there’s an issue but want to stay in. So we get the far right, fascism, malign actor lines.

I’d say ditch left / right and ask is there a problem to solve yes or no? And what are the options.

I one hundred percent take your point that it is not only those on the right wing of politics who other those who have differing political opinions to them, and I hate it when name calling is used to shut down debate, whether that's labelling and dismissing 'lefties', or the word 'fascist' being bandied about too loosely.

But on the other hand, we do have to be honest with ourselves. Danny Tommo for example is a Far-Right agitator. Bardella is a Far-Right politician. And if those on the British Right - Reform in particular - choose not to condemn those figures, and indeed to stand grinning on a stage beside them, then I do think they leave themselves open to being labelled Far-Right themselves. (And again that isn't a left/ right point - I said the same about Corbyn because of some of the people he chose to share a platform with).

People on the far right are deliberately blurring the boundaries between themselves and ordinary people 'concerned about immigration'. Whenever there's a discussion about atrocious behaviour on the part of a far right activist, you can bet your house, someone will pop up on here to sanitise them by hiding them behind the concerns of 'ordinary people'.
Then we invariably end up being told "ordinary people who care about women and children are getting called racist" when in fact, the person who was called racist is not an 'ordinary person', but a racist.
The Starmer quote is an excellent example. He was referring to the actual far right. Yet people persist in disingenuously framing it as calling people who want to stop the boats (don't we all?) far right.
The solution for right leaning not racist people who dont want to be called far right lies in their own hands. Call out the actions of the boat slasher, dissociate from violence and extremism, stop defending them just because 'the lefties' are criticising them and the enemy of my enemy.
Stop letting them hide amongst the moderate right, as one right wing poster has on this thread. No one will be calling her a racist.

I agree with you, in that all governments, on the left and right of the political spectrum are grappling with the migrant crisis and that if we want pragmatic policy making we should listen to all available evidence about what may and may not work.

We can then choose how we apply that evidence though, in a way that is most in keeping with the long held British values of tolerance, compassion and the strengths of a multi cultural society.

So what do we call those on the left who are stirring up hate and division?

I've seen you before @5128gap say it's not always as simple as left v right but it really is. There are "ordinary people" on both sides.

Of course countries can deny people. It is what the whole visa system is about.

But if Tommy turned up claiming asylum, claiming he was being politically persecuted and he seeks safety, of course he should be allowed in, and his case heard.

And if they turn up after having passed multiple safe points of refuge? Even so why should they be allowed to stay here at all at all?

The refugee convention was made in the aftermath of post European displacement. The world has changed a lot since then.

So what do we call those on the left who are stirring up hate and division?

Exactly. And there are extremists on both sides too. You may have also seen me say before (as I do tend to repeat myself!) that the counter point to extremism is moderation, not extremism from the other direction. So moderate reasonable people who want solutions from both 'sides' should be willing to join in calling out extremism and bad behaviour.

There are people who are associated with the left who have behaved appallingly. There has been anti semiticism and the TRAs disgusting treatment of women. I'd call them dangerous extremists who are not 'the left' I align with. I condemn them completely and disassociate from them entirely.

Far-Left, I imagine. I know plenty of people on the left of the political spectrum who refused to vote Labour under Corbyn’s leadership, because they felt his politics was divisive. And I also know people who left the Labour Party under his leadership because they felt anti semitic hatred was allowed to fester.

You don’t have to defend the indefensible just because it comes from “your side”.

People on the far right are deliberately blurring the boundaries between themselves and ordinary people 'concerned about immigration'. Whenever there's a discussion about atrocious behaviour on the part of a far right activist, you can bet your house, someone will pop up on here to sanitise them by hiding them behind the concerns of 'ordinary people'.
Then we invariably end up being told "ordinary people who care about women and children are getting called racist" when in fact, the person who was called racist is not an 'ordinary person', but a racist.
The Starmer quote is an excellent example. He was referring to the actual far right. Yet people persist in disingenuously framing it as calling people who want to stop the boats (don't we all?) far right.
The solution for right leaning not racist people who dont want to be called far right lies in their own hands. Call out the actions of the boat slasher, dissociate from violence and extremism, stop defending them just because 'the lefties' are criticising them and the enemy of my enemy.
Stop letting them hide amongst the moderate right, as one right wing poster has on this thread. No one will be calling her a racist.

The birth rate is falling and the biggest generation will be gone in the next 20/25 years. I won’t be here to see it but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the welcome mat is out for immigrants at that point.

I'm not so sure about that. With global warming, AI, people living longer because of medical advances there will be some difficult decisions to be made in the next 20/25 years. I think there will be food and water shortages and countries will want to keep their borders shut.

Medical advances can’t make people immortal and there will always be a need for humans to do the work impossible for AI.

Been out but great to come back and read your posts @5128gap (and others) because you articulate it so much better than I could!

When I hear this weird talk about 'sides,' I don't know where to begin because I don't see myself as a 'leftie.' I live in a London borough which has been LibDem for a while - used to sometimes go Conservative, but they fell out of favour since Brexit as the borough was so strongly 'Remain.' But there is no point voting Labour in our constituency as they never get in , so anyone minded to vote Labour would probably vote LD to keep the Conservatives out. The likes of Reform don't even bother in our area, let's just say that. So I voted LD in the last council elections, even though I certainly do not agree with trans ideology or (admittedly) even know what their latest stance is on this. But it was either that, or Conservative, so what can you do?

The irony is, it's people around my way that would probably have most to gain from a Reform govt - in a purely financial sense. Labour put VAT in school fees; there is a strong feeling that they don't understand business and entrepreneurship; and it seems we have a mansion tax coming our way. Reform supposedly (if you believe they have any policies beyond 'immigration'), have some policy to encourage people to use private schools and tax policies to benefit rich business people. But I would never vote for them and, to be honest, I've never met anyone who would. I would be ashamed to live in a Reform-led society and, in my view, the lot of them are rotten to the core. It's the politics of hate and division. I have had the misfortune to meet Farage and I felt I wanted to vomit. Hideous man But anyway, I'm hardly 'far left' - just a 52 year-old mum of 4. I wouldn't have a clue about 'Antifa' or any of this type of thing. I just don't want my children to grow up in an inward-looking, hateful, racist society. They are Indian/Iranian/Spanish/British and so it's difficult to have a 'them and us' perspectives on immigrants, or to stereotype people according to 'culture.' We are not religious and I don't know what people are so scared of.