To think that mothers just care more about the kids than fathers do? In most cases?

Because going into it, we have NO IDEA how bad they are going to be. And once we've had one child, we're kinda trapped - can have no more kids, or have kids with another loser, or have another kid with this loser. And if you want another kid, actually the latter is the best option. Pathetic, really, but those are the options.

If you procreate with a useless man, then yes, you are to blame. Not for him being useless, but for allowing his uselessness to become your problem.

THIS. The amount of men who can just walk away from their children is astonishing. And even if they have visitation, it is NOT the same as living with your kids full time. Not even close. And it’s almost always men who break up the family.

I don’t think men value marriage OR children as much as women do. As a group, I mean. Obvs there are many individuals who do. But the numbers of men who are able to walk away from wives and kids is just amazing to me. They’re like robots. When they’re done, a switch flips and that’s it.

I hope those types all have lonely old ages.

Again, is this the standard we accept for ourselves? That men are useless and nothing can be done about it? Except blame women who are affected by it

This is so true. If you want more than one kid, you might as well make sure that at least they have the same dad, plus you don’t have to wait and get divorced and then hope to find someone else in biological time.

I was married to a man who became abusive. I had NO IDEA what he was going to be like. People who blame the woman for being with a bad man have zero idea how abuse works. It often only starts when you’re trapped.

I see some dads on the school run who appear to be pretty engaged and in tune with their DC but largely it’s mums or grandmas. When our NDN divorced her DH, her mum basically moved in for months and did all of her cleaning. SIL is a drug addict with huge MH issues and sadly decided to have a baby, MIL is picking up the pieces daily while FIL plays golf. Tends to be women bearing the brunt from day 1. Also seems easier for some men to walk away entirely from their children than it is women. Of course some women do this but it’s vanishingly rare in comparison.

Where did I say that men are useless? I said that if a man is useless, you shouldn't have kids with him. And yes, there are always indications.

Oh, I SO agree! I HATE it when men trot out this line that they’re working so hard bc of their families! Like they wouldn’t be working hard otherwise! My exH and I didn’t have kids and he’d trot out this line. As if I didn’t work, and bloody hard, too! We’ve been separated for ages, and guess what, he works harder than ever! Someone upthread said something about a man slogging his guts out to provide for his family. Well, I have to slog my guts out to provide for myself, soooo…..We all have to slog our guts out if we’re the breadwinner, even if it’s bread for one. Maybe especially then, since there is no second income.

Rather than saying men should step up? Wouldn’t that just an easier solution all round or is it too much to ask of them?

Women are to blame for doing nothing about it

Women are not in control of men. Men don’t need prompts from women to be better fathers

Amd many women DO try to do something. They get called nags. If nothing changes what should they do? Hold their husbands at gunpoint?

Do womwn are willing to keep on having children and giving those children a terrible or useless father

So a women's need comes before what is best for the children they keep on having, and yes women have choices they dont habe to keep on having children it is not forced on them

They can leave the men

Oh yes because all women have the finances, means and properties to just leave, there’s absolutely no impact on anyone ever. Especially not their children.
OR, a much more measured response rather than having broken families is just for men to step up and do better?

Well if a womwn uses a man as a bank that is their choice, men can choose to be useless women can choose not to keep on children with useless men

Woman can make better choices same as men

Useless or whatever label people want ro use

What do you mean by “women use men as a bank”?

We can all make better choices but it’s funny how people like you insist that it’s actually up to women to make men better

Yep - funny how these men who can’t change nappies hold down very good jobs

A lot of the deadbeats we read about on here aren't like that, they are crap in every area of life. I'm sorry but most men who are efficient and together in most areas of life are not crap fathers.

She isn't saying that women need to 'make men better'. She is saying be careful who you choose to have children with. Also, I see her point about the bank. The women who complain about their husbands being useless with the kids tend to fall into two categories those who have kids with deadbeats and SAHMs. Often the first category of woman are the primary breadwinner as well as doing everything for the kids, and you wonder why on earth they had a child or children with such a person. The second category are women whose husbands work very high powered jobs and bring home a lot of money, but the women feel aggrieved that they don't pull their weight at home. I think that both categories should have thought harder about what having children entails.

Depends, more women will come on here to ask advice, vent or gripe about the father's of their children then those would who have amazing partners, it'd be odd to make a post just saying how wonderful they are. But I'm one who could do that, my husband deeply loves me and our son, and is genuinely 50/50 in his care. I joke he's the mum and I'm the dad as I will be more chilled with him climbing at the park and going fast on his balance bike whole his dad hovers about worried. He's a gentle and patient, and very in love father, just adores his child and gives him so much. He's a lovely fellow and I love seeing him be a father.

You’ve just summed up what I was thinking! Thank you.
Well said x