To think that mothers just care more about the kids than fathers do? In most cases?

I think you're partly right.

But it's more that they are happy to exploit the mothers of their children for an easier life.

Our whole society is predicated on that.

I'm not sure middle class dads are any more of a shining example than their working class counterparts

I think that's a massive generalisation, even more massive than the one in the OP.

I agree, in general. There are a lot of good, loving fathers out there but the number of absent fathers, single mothers, male violence, many men leaving it all to the women says there’s

probably a majority of men out there who, as you say, just don’t care that much (or, if they do, it seems they’ll switch it off when it’s not in their favour to do so).

I agree with this. I've been very worried about my DC at various times - were they eating/sleeping/learning enough etc. Each time my DH would try to get me to relax about it all and, you know what, he was right. Whatever I'd worried about resolved itself after a few weeks. So a lot of stress over nothing.

So even if we accept that women 'care' more than men, does that care always lead to better outcomes? Perhaps we can learn from each other. Worried, helicopter mums can relax a bit and laid-back, hands-off dads can keep track of routines, bedtimes, and all that stuff.

Dear oh dear oh dear … what a jaundiced view of society. Do you work for the BBC ? Or maybe you’re simply anxious to post something which might stir up a bit of controversy and division. Jeezo.

I know this is true for me and DH. My heart genuinely hurts when the DCs are sad and I think about them all the time. DH says when he's at work he doesn't really think about them at all and he usually puts himself first or a close second to them. He says he can't be a good dad unless he's happy, but I say I can't be a good mum unless the DCs are happy.

Yes of course that is true. Men care about sex more than women do, and women care more about babies/children. The sexes are not equal - they have different roles in the survival of the species.

I think it does depend, I think my mum worried a lot more than my Dad about certain things but that was also just her personality and my Dad cared just as much and showed that in different ways where my mum perhaps lacked. I have seen other men literally walk away from their families when their relationship with the mum ends but that isn't all men.

That's probably because the middle and upper middle classes outsource housework. It doesn't mean that working class men do more to help their wives, it's just that the wives of middle class men possibly either outsource or have husbands wealthy enough for them to stay at home.

What do you mean?

But the middle class women statistically do more housework than the middle class men. It's not all being outsourced

And just checked, working class men are more likely to symmetrically share childcare with their partners than middle class men.

Have you considered that he couldn't he that person with you as a co-parent? Have you considered that this might happen with other people?

People often comment on how hands-on my partner is with our kids and always has been. But I gave space for that to happen. I didnt try and micromanage how he held them, fed them, played with them, etc. I see some mothers constantly criticise their male co-parents, insist their ways are right, and then wonder why he has neither the confidence or desire to do more of the caring for children or the housework etc.

And yes, worrying, fussing, micromanaging, and other forms of general neurotic behaviour isn't love or care. In some people, it's a mental health condition.

With the SAHM or work part time for me i found that ex didn't class me as working because it was only part time. So I was expected to do everything at home including waiting in him.

When i was at home full time he also expected me to do Everything including waiting on him. If i asked for help i would get i have been at work all day. He never understood my day didn't end at 4pm it was 24hrs a day.

My kids are older now but I'm when I think about it i still get angry about how selfish he is. And how worthless he made me feel.

My husband is a working class military man who didn’t go to uni. Not sure I could ascribe it a class or education level tbh but maybe I’m biased towards my husband. I do have to concede though that my husband isnt like a lot of men in many respects, he’s a lot gentler, self conscious and genuinely kind than most of the men I know. It’s why I’ve held on to him for dear life since I was a teenager! I’ve always known he was different, I’m hoping our sons absorb it all!

The pick-me has arrived

I mean , in terms of emotional care and worrying, DH definitely does less. It’s fine… everything is fine. Tbf , he was raised by completely uninterested and uninvolved parents so I don’t think he even knows how. There’s a warped logic too that he ended up fine, so DD getting a lot more from both of us, will definitely be fine. The man is also so chilled , he’s horizontal.

On the other hand, he’ll do anything for DD to make her happy . He was the soft play parent (I abhorred it). He took her swimming for years , every weekend. He’ll trawl 17 shops to find that specific thing she wants(she’s very fussy and taste specific so not all potatoes/cheese/grapes are the same, don’t ask!)He’ll drive all the way to Wales for a holiday (despite saying he never would), because DD went on residential and fell in love with the area. Pay extra for glasses because they are the ones she really likes and wants her to be comfortable with them. Ferry her around to clubs, parties etc. Supports her on going to any and all trips etc.

It’s a different type of care, but between the two of us we’ve got DD covered. I hope.

DH is absolutely obsessed with our DCs, always has been. He is a fantastic Dad and more patient than me in a lot of ways, couldn't have done it without him!

That could possibly be, as I said, because they are SAHM who can afford to live on their husband's wage. Not in all cases, of course, but in some. I would be very surprised if working class men were much more egalitarian in their outlook than middle class men.

I agree mostly. I think it’s partly that mothers carried that child for 9 months, changed their whole body, risked their life to give birth, sacrificed for them, likely took at least 6 months off work learning their cues, bonding etc. they simply have more skin in the game.

Secondly, society doesn’t have these big expectations of care from men (the bar is a lot lower) but it does of women. So dads can gain all the benefits of having DC who are loved, cared for and looked after but without too much personal sacrifice. I know several childfree women who have said they would have had dc if they could be a dad!

I think men have more freedom. For instance, this weekend, me, sister & my mum have brought the kids away (mine & sis DS, 2 kids). Good fun, but hard work!

The men have been enjoying downtime, golf, football, scratching their holes are home. Take-away for dinner. Cleaning the house? No! Not a care in the world for them.