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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Muslim women and trans policies in the workplace

136 replies

TroubledBetty · 24/02/2021 13:54

Hello

The company I have been working for under a year has just published a new trans policy document which I read last week and has caused me to feel anxious about going back in to the work place.

What is making me feel ill is the statement that a 'trans colleagues are entitled to facilities they feel most comfortable using'. For non-binary people, this might mean using gender-neutral facilities or using a combination of different facilities which they feel most comfortable using.' A friend of mine who doesn't work there but is a scholar wrote in on my behalf (I have been too scared) to some EDI people. He quoted scripture from the Qu'ran which says how we cannot use toilets where there are males which aren't children or family members. But if transgender women who are male-bodied people then to myself and other women at my company they are then mixed-sex.

My friend sent on the response from the company to me this morning. It went like this 'Most XYZ offices have toilets with individual stalls with full height dividing walls and a full height lockable door. The individual toilet areas include a washbasin. There is therefore no need to come into contact with someone else whilst using the toilet facility. I am happy to discuss alternative options with XYZ if she is an office where these toilets are not available or have not been clearly signposted.'

I and my colleagues wouldn't be comfortable using these restrooms even with enclosed cubicles. We often will help each other with our veils (we cant do this in front of men) and it is a safe space for us to congregate. I know that many feminists don't approve of the wearing of veils but I am asking you for help and advice.

my thoughts are

is this legal? To restrict access to small spaces where only one Muslim can be at a time when males have freedom to go anywhere they would like

they speak of being 'comfortable' but I would be very 'uncomfortable' coming out of a cubicle to be confronted with a male. We have to pray 5 times a day and before prayer we have to wash (private parts, feet, hands, pat down our hair etc). I would feel extremely uncomfortable doing this if I know that there is a male there or that a male could enter at any time.

I have asked and although there are separate cubicles this to me still counts as 1 restroom.

I have never seen any women's restrooms in the 4 company offices with wash basins. I think these must just be in the Gender Neutral toilets. Should I ask that? Because if that is the case then these are totally inappropriate for us.

shouldn't they have sent out questionnaires to Muslim women or something like that asking us for our opinion?

I am upset by this because I thought this company values itself on being clear thinkers and this has stunned me

OP posts:
DropDTuning · 26/02/2021 20:27

The point is not to 'team up' with Holocaust deniers and those who thnk that women and girls shouldn't have any rights at all. Is it?

bourbonne · 26/02/2021 21:16

I'm sorry to act the thread police, but can we agree the point's been made about the controversies of the MCB, and get back to supporting the OP on the issue at hand?

gardenbird48 · 26/02/2021 21:34

@Azerothi

I know I bang on about this (a lot) but we had a lovely women-only swimming group just one fucking hour a week with all sorts of women and women of various faiths. I am severely disabled and loved this group. Of course, the men dressing as women were allowed to join it and now two men swim in the women-only group alone.
that is absolutely shocking. Why can't they establish a trans swim session for themselves?? One hour per week shouldn't be hard to fine in the schedule. (I know the answer btw)

I think this has got to get to a court case to establish OP's rights, your rights and all of our rights to single sex spaces.

Anne Sinnotts campaign to force the EHRC to actually tell a bazillion organisations that they provided with false advice on this exact issue could do with some major gardening input.

I'm sure so many organisations would welcome the correct advice that puts right the obvious wrongs that they are seeing in their daily business.

They know that they are upsetting women and putting them at risk but they feel that, due to the false advice received from official organisations (EHRC, GEO, many captured lawyers etc) they are at risk of action if they exclude the people who are determined to access every female only activity.

ListeningQuietly · 26/02/2021 21:34

@bourbonne

I'm sorry to act the thread police, but can we agree the point's been made about the controversies of the MCB, and get back to supporting the OP on the issue at hand?
The key point surely is that the OP is much less isolated than she thought she was AND after yesterday's HoL debate, the issues will be aired.
Howzaboutye · 27/02/2021 18:02

I think we really need an actual court action on this. UK law is made from precedent.
We just cannot let things for women be trampled all over for an extreme minority who can be better served for their own needs completely separately.

No woman should be going back to work after lockdown to be confronted with disgusting unisex toilets.

MichelleofzeResistance · 27/02/2021 19:12

Or to find that they can no longer go the loo at work - and will be making themselves extremely vulnerable if they dare to share this massive problem and workplace rights/human rights breach.

Yes, it needs court cases. It has to be brought out in the open and tested in law. Are we now living in a society where it is ok to breach women's rights and exclude them from equal access if they cannot use mixed sex facilities? Does gender identity trump and cancel out all other protected characteristics when there is a conflict? Are third ways that meet all needs not legally acceptable?

SlipperyLizard · 27/02/2021 21:27

OP I’m interested in whether as a Muslim woman you would feel able to use unisex toilets that were fully enclosed, single user with sink inside? The office block my firm is moving to only has these toilets and I’m dreading it, and I don’t really think the building designers thought of Muslim women at all (or indeed any women and most men, who want single sex toilets).

Our current office has male, female and one “gender neutral” which apparently used to be the men’s and stinks of piss 🤮 I have never been in!

ListeningQuietly · 27/02/2021 21:40

If each cubicle is effectively a cloakroom

  • of the kind that small restaurants have one of -
there should be no problem as the whole washroom process is private.
BrassyLocks · 27/02/2021 23:25

@DropDTuning

The point is not to 'team up' with Holocaust deniers and those who thnk that women and girls shouldn't have any rights at all. Is it?
The MCB have said this where?
Manderleyagain · 27/02/2021 23:50

I think the point on the Muslim of council of Britain is that teaming up with them won't necessarily help OP as employers are apparently taking a lead from government and not engaging with them on workplace issues (according to the PP and links), so she would be better off seeking the help of other organisations.

vomcomvomcom · 28/02/2021 07:44

Sending you lots of support, please update the thread with any developments. Good luck

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