Muslim women and trans policies in the workplace

[TroubledBetty]

Hello

The company I have been working for under a year has just published a new trans policy document which I read last week and has caused me to feel anxious about going back in to the work place.

What is making me feel ill is the statement that a 'trans colleagues are entitled to facilities they feel most comfortable using'. For non-binary people, this might mean using gender-neutral facilities or using a combination of different facilities which they feel most comfortable using.' A friend of mine who doesn't work there but is a scholar wrote in on my behalf (I have been too scared) to some EDI people. He quoted scripture from the Qu'ran which says how we cannot use toilets where there are males which aren't children or family members. But if transgender women who are male-bodied people then to myself and other women at my company they are then mixed-sex.

My friend sent on the response from the company to me this morning. It went like this 'Most XYZ offices have toilets with individual stalls with full height dividing walls and a full height lockable door. The individual toilet areas include a washbasin. There is therefore no need to come into contact with someone else whilst using the toilet facility. I am happy to discuss alternative options with XYZ if she is an office where these toilets are not available or have not been clearly signposted.'

I and my colleagues wouldn't be comfortable using these restrooms even with enclosed cubicles. We often will help each other with our veils (we cant do this in front of men) and it is a safe space for us to congregate. I know that many feminists don't approve of the wearing of veils but I am asking you for help and advice.

my thoughts are

is this legal? To restrict access to small spaces where only one Muslim can be at a time when males have freedom to go anywhere they would like

they speak of being 'comfortable' but I would be very 'uncomfortable' coming out of a cubicle to be confronted with a male. We have to pray 5 times a day and before prayer we have to wash (private parts, feet, hands, pat down our hair etc). I would feel extremely uncomfortable doing this if I know that there is a male there or that a male could enter at any time.

I have asked and although there are separate cubicles this to me still counts as 1 restroom.

I have never seen any women's restrooms in the 4 company offices with wash basins. I think these must just be in the Gender Neutral toilets. Should I ask that? Because if that is the case then these are totally inappropriate for us.

shouldn't they have sent out questionnaires to Muslim women or something like that asking us for our opinion?

I am upset by this because I thought this company values itself on being clear thinkers and this has stunned me

It’s a good idea to call the MCB but do note they may give you impractical advice to work around the problem instead of a proper fix. For example at my last workplace (similarly global) they advised that a non-Muslim woman should walk in first to see if there were any males in the loo and redirect any males if they tried to enter. It was such stupid advice and led to many muslim women not using the toilets in the building.

In the end it took a complaint from a muslim customer before the workplace made any meaningful changes.

I am not Muslim. However, I think your employer are discriminating against you (albeit indirectly and not perhaps deliberately). You need what you need and your employer needs to provide that for you. You’re not being unreasonable your employer is. Sorry I can’t help but just wanted to say I don’t think you’re being unreasonable.

Do the MCB have policies/advice for businesses and premises?
I think changes to facilities and the provision of more gender neutral/mixed sex toilets and changing areas is likely to continue and escalate. If this is going to have a negative impact on Muslim women, then it might be very helpful to have a high level of steer and input from a body with recognition and clout.

Welcome to Mumsnet, Betty. I can see you're getting excellent advice, and I know the women commenting here are well qualified and know a lot about the law.

I'm not a Muslim but I too feel very unhappy, and indeed threatened, by men using women's toilets and changing rooms. (I'm saying "men", not transwomen, as your company's policy is to allow self-ID, which is not allowed by law.) You are not being unreasonable.

Best of luck to you.

And as others have said here, I would support you if you launched a crowdfunder.

I would consider also making contact with Jewish women's organisations as Orthodox Jews face similar problems.

Do you know Nisa nashim?

I’m not Muslim but I also would not want to share toilet space with men.

@Beamur

Do the MCB have policies/advice for businesses and premises? I think changes to facilities and the provision of more gender neutral/mixed sex toilets and changing areas is likely to continue and escalate. If this is going to have a negative impact on Muslim women, then it might be very helpful to have a high level of steer and input from a body with recognition and clout.

Agreed. I can't believe Troubled Betty is the only Muslim woman in this country with this problem. If the MCB doesn't have a policy, then it needs to get one pdq.

OP , thank you for your posts and for starting this thread .
I have no religious faith at all but appreciate that other people do ; I fully respect their faith and support their right to practise .
There are male-bodied people who wish to be perceived as women who are insistent that we women give up our rights to privacy , dignity and safety , and they are coercing some women to give up those rights on behalf of all women .
You , as a woman who upholds Muslim principles , should have access to a space to tend to your female and faith-based needs without concern of male intrusion . Sex and Faith are protected characteristics .
I am reminded of the difficulties we had last millennium in trying to find clean , safe places to change and breastfeed our babies whilst out and about .

If you do a crowdfund, OP i would donate. We are women and it is in all womens interests that we retain toilets for single sex use. I am sorry that you are experiencing this. If companies want to be inclusive surely its easy to install one mixed sex / gender neutral toilet. For the tiny portion of their workforce that night need it

@Thelnebriati

Assuming you are in the UK they are breaking the law. toilets can be single use or single sex.

'trans colleagues are entitled to facilities they feel most comfortable using'.
No thats not true. Women are legally entitled to single sex facilities. Even a gender recognition certificate does not entitle a person to use the women's toilet, as they are a proportionate means to a legitimate end, and women are the sex class that have to deal with menstruation.

shouldn't they have sent out questionnaires to Muslim women or something like that asking us for our opinion?
No they shouldn't. You are entitled to single sex facilities, and you can't consent on behalf of other women who work there now, or women who may work there in the future.. Asking you for consent is a form of coercion and its illegal.

If they want to make facilities mixed sex they can make them in addition to the single sex facilities. Women should not be inconvenienced by having to travel further, ort to another building.
They should have performed an equality impact assessment. You can ask to see it.

'trans colleagues are entitled to facilities they feel most comfortable using'. No thats not true. Women are legally entitled to single sex facilities. Even a gender recognition certificate does not entitle a person to use the women's toilet, as they are a proportionate means to a legitimate end...

The legitimate aim is optional not compulsory and good reason needs to be proven. And I doubt if it has ever been used in regard to toilets.

This site (below) says that employers must treat people fairly and be sensitive to their needs on grounds of religion (prayer rooms, dress code etc) and I’m sure that your employer should listen to you when you tell them that the measures they have in place are not good enough.

I’m not a lawyer and there is a lot of good advice on the websites up thread, but it seems like it is discrimination against you and your colleagues (all of your female colleagues) on grounds of Sex (not providing single sex facilities as per EA 2010 and Health &Safety at work) and Religious Beliefs by not proving reasonable facilities for you to adhere to the requirements of your religion.

Re their argument about the cubicles, I’m sure the law only says that enclosed cubicles with a wash hand basin are suitable when they open onto a wider public area (I can’t remember the terminology) and NOT opening into an enclosed ’toilet room’ which doesn’t suit your needs for obvious reasons. (If I’ve understood your description of the provision correctly).

This situation is going to become more common I fear as people return to the office after Covid to find shiny new mixed arrangements or women may not have realised that the policy has been changed and won’t find out until a transgender employee comes along and pops up in the ladies one day.

Gather support among your colleagues and best of luck. Please let us know if you make progress.

Ladies check your policies.

www.cipd.co.uk/knowledge/fundamentals/emp-law/religious-discrimination/factsheet#gref

Inky octopus
"In our organisation we have separate washing areas for Muslim staff. "

Is this because the toilet / washing facilities are mixed sex?

It's not legal - it's in breach of the Equality Act because it is indirectly discriminating against a group of people on the basis of their religious belief.

Gottalife you must be aware from being on mn by now that the ‘proportionate means to a legitimate aim’ measure is used very frequently, constantly in fact.

The law has already provided for its use in exactly that type of facility. See the list below (and the link to the actual part of the law)

It is very clear and the Health & Safety regulations also stipulate a specific number of single sexual toilets for the size of workforce.

It is only Stonewall et al that have deliberately manufactured confusion in this where there needs to be none at all.

Examples

• 738.These exceptions would allow:

a cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;

• a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;

a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;

• separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;
• separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;
• a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7

Op if you seek advice from a lawyer I would also check that they are not Stonewall champions (or affiliated to some similar network) otherwise you are very likely to get incorrect advice (such a bizarre situation that you can’t even trust the lawyers with the law but hey ho).

This jumped out at me from the policy, and it might be wise to put it at the forefront of whatever you say:

For non-binary people, this might mean using gender-neutral facilities or using a combination of different facilities which they feel most comfortable using

There is an obvious conflict here between the right of someone who is male but id's a nb to use women's toilets (the company seem to assume that right exists) and your right to be provided with single sex facilities. You have the protected characteristic of sex (as female) and religion & belief. What protected characteristic does the hypothetical bearded nb have other than sex (male)? How would they defend a discrimination claim from you about this? What kind of impact assessment did they do on this, to see how the policy affects other groups?

It might be worth contacting 'counterweight' to see if this is the kind of thing they've dealt with, but maybe you should go straight to speaking to a discrimination lawyer.

Hi Betty - and so glad you have posted this.

I think it might be worth contacting Leigh Day solicitors and I think they have done some cases on no win no fee and claim to be very keen to fight for equality.

Also it might be worth contacting the Muslim Women's Network. Hopefully they will not only understand your concerns but will be fully committed to standing up for them. www.mwnuk.co.uk/ I think they were recently appointed to run one of the All Party Parliamentary Committees so they do have status.

Unlike the MCB who the Government does NOT talke to on the basis of alleged comments said to be anti semitic. Penny Mordaunt has just been told off for meeting the new (first?) woman leader of MCB. So not saying this is acceptable but wouldn't want your query lost in the contraversy over this.

It might be worth contacting Southall Black Sisters. They have a reputation for taking difficult cases on. The only issue might be whether in the current circumstances they can do this. southallblacksisters.org.uk/

Or is it worth writing a letter to any of the Muslim newspapers? Assuming your letter can by anonymous this might mean that other women facing the same issue will feel able to raise the question. ie make it easier for you to know you are part of a group of women making the same complaint rather than you being an isolated individual in one work place.

I do hope you can find some way of getting the company to take your complaints seriously.

There are multiple accounts of muslim women no longer attending supposedly single-sex women swimming after transwomen were allowed to attend.

There must be so many women affected by this.

"You could call the solicitors Leigh and Day"

I see that Leigh&Day are a Stonewall Diversity Champion.

www.leighday.co.uk/diversity-and-inclusion-at-leigh-day/

We have to pray 5 times a day and before prayer we have to wash (private parts, feet, hands, pat down our hair etc). I would feel extremely uncomfortable doing this if I know that there is a male there or that a male could enter at any time

Do you do this at the moment? I'm a woman and I wouldn't be thrilled at finding someone of either sex washing their "private parts" in the communal sink area.

The legitimate aim is optional not compulsory and good reason needs to be proven.

It's not just one way, women or people with other protected characteristics such as race or religion can bring court cases too saying they are either being directly or indirectly discriminated against or subjected to sexual harassment.

Gottalife
Single sex sleeping and bathroom accommodations are legal on the grounds of privacy. There's no need for any court case, its set out in The Equality Act.
The fact that transsexual people can be included in this exemption acknowledges that their biological sex is not the same as gender identity or a newly acquired legal sex status.

''Effect
997.This paragraph provides an exception to the general prohibition of sex and gender reassignment discrimination. It allows communal accommodation to be restricted to one sex only...''

''Examples
A hostel only accepts male guests. It is not unlawful for it to refuse to accept female guests because the majority of the bedrooms are shared and there is only one communal bathroom.''

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/40/3

@MissBarbary

We have to pray 5 times a day and before prayer we have to wash (private parts, feet, hands, pat down our hair etc). I would feel extremely uncomfortable doing this if I know that there is a male there or that a male could enter at any time

Do you do this at the moment? I'm a woman and I wouldn't be thrilled at finding someone of either sex washing their "private parts" in the communal sink area.

Of course not literally

@Flapjak

Inky octopus "In our organisation we have separate washing areas for Muslim staff. "

Is this because the toilet / washing facilities are mixed sex?

No because muslim staff need to wash body parts prior to prayers and need a private space to do so.