Muslim women and trans policies in the workplace

[TroubledBetty]

Hello

The company I have been working for under a year has just published a new trans policy document which I read last week and has caused me to feel anxious about going back in to the work place.

What is making me feel ill is the statement that a 'trans colleagues are entitled to facilities they feel most comfortable using'. For non-binary people, this might mean using gender-neutral facilities or using a combination of different facilities which they feel most comfortable using.' A friend of mine who doesn't work there but is a scholar wrote in on my behalf (I have been too scared) to some EDI people. He quoted scripture from the Qu'ran which says how we cannot use toilets where there are males which aren't children or family members. But if transgender women who are male-bodied people then to myself and other women at my company they are then mixed-sex.

My friend sent on the response from the company to me this morning. It went like this 'Most XYZ offices have toilets with individual stalls with full height dividing walls and a full height lockable door. The individual toilet areas include a washbasin. There is therefore no need to come into contact with someone else whilst using the toilet facility. I am happy to discuss alternative options with XYZ if she is an office where these toilets are not available or have not been clearly signposted.'

I and my colleagues wouldn't be comfortable using these restrooms even with enclosed cubicles. We often will help each other with our veils (we cant do this in front of men) and it is a safe space for us to congregate. I know that many feminists don't approve of the wearing of veils but I am asking you for help and advice.

my thoughts are

is this legal? To restrict access to small spaces where only one Muslim can be at a time when males have freedom to go anywhere they would like

they speak of being 'comfortable' but I would be very 'uncomfortable' coming out of a cubicle to be confronted with a male. We have to pray 5 times a day and before prayer we have to wash (private parts, feet, hands, pat down our hair etc). I would feel extremely uncomfortable doing this if I know that there is a male there or that a male could enter at any time.

I have asked and although there are separate cubicles this to me still counts as 1 restroom.

I have never seen any women's restrooms in the 4 company offices with wash basins. I think these must just be in the Gender Neutral toilets. Should I ask that? Because if that is the case then these are totally inappropriate for us.

shouldn't they have sent out questionnaires to Muslim women or something like that asking us for our opinion?

I am upset by this because I thought this company values itself on being clear thinkers and this has stunned me

Also jumping on to wish you all the best and send your strength. Good luck op

Good luck OP! Come back and let us know how it's going!

Also wishing you good luck OP.
I noticed that Baroness Uddin had some very strong opinions about the removal of women's sex based language and rights in her speech in the House of Lords earlier today:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm

@Outofexcuses

How about contacting the Muslim Council of Britain and asking them to contact your employers? They would surely have to take an approach from the MCB more seriously than they did your friend's.

This sounds like a really good idea👍

I've just received an email from 38Degrees asking me to sign a petition against the government taking action on the toilet issue, as according to 38Degrees trans people are "terrified" to go to the toilet. You can imagine the rest - well, it was probably even worse than you're imagining. I had to unsubscribe from them.

OP if you need funds I would support you. I imagine though if you talk to your Muslim male friends & family they will be horrified at the thought of you being denied a single sex bathroom. Its' simply not acceptable. As others have said-mixed sex toilets 'as well' as single sex can accommodate everyone. It really is the only acceptable way forward.

Dear all, thank you all so much for these responses. I thought I was being over the top but there is so much unanimous support I am overwhelmed!!!!!

I am writing to Muslim scholars and groups to try to ask for advice from them and for them to write letters. We are asking solicitors to help us. For now
I am so tired and I am so worried but if I am honest I cannot stay working for a consultancy company who hates Muslim women.

@TroubledBetty you sound like a formidable woman, taking some really smart actions. I hope you also find lots of support from people in your real life, of course it must be really stressful and scary so take care of yourself, and keep us updated and let us know if we can help.

Keep us posted OP! Good luck!

I can’t believe this is real, and that people just accept it (not talking about the OP or anyone on this thread obviously, just society in general accepting this as fact/ a way of life)

I have nothing intelligent to say really. It just doesn’t make any sense at all, and I feel like I am living in 1984.

OP I have a Muslim colleague (we're a multi-agency service ans she sits in local government.) She contacted the Muslim Council for support last autumn about toilets and washing facilities.
They sounded really supportive at the time.
I asked her this morning if she could signpost where to go within the organisation for help. She said the Muslim Council is supportive and engages well with Muslims facing workplaces issues, but her employer reported her they don't engage with the Muslim Council in line with central government. It sounded nuts so I googled it this afternoon:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/22/muslim-council-says-uk-ministers-refusal-to-cooperate-has-had-tragic-consequences

And she's absolutely right. The government doesn't engage with the Muslim Council and this thinking seems to have trickled through government structure, all the way to government employers.

That's shocking. Do they think that talking to Muslim representatives will annoy their racist supporters?

Atheist here who UTTERLY supports you OP.

I know I bang on about this (a lot) but we had a lovely women-only swimming group just one fucking hour a week with all sorts of women and women of various faiths. I am severely disabled and loved this group. Of course, the men dressing as women were allowed to join it and now two men swim in the women-only group alone.

I did point this out about the Muslim Council up thread and was surprised that others then mentioned it.

That's why I suggested Muslim Women's Network who work with the Government.

Dont want to sound grouchy but on a help thread where someon is asking for help it cant be that helpful to have the same things said over again.

It doesn't take that long to skim read through a thread.

ie better to add a single line with an unyet unmentioned contact.

Otherwise as OP said its a bit overwhelming.

@stumbledin
You're right, I should have skimmed the responses first, sorry.

It would be good if someone could sue the council over the loss of the 1 hour women only swimming, on the grounds of faith discrimination. It means that some women and girls will simply never be able to swim. On safety grounds again it's utterly wrong (they may really need to be able to swim one day).

On basic inclusion grounds its utterly wrong. Including males excludes some females. There will be or could be other provisions for transwomen to swim: LGBT specific sessions, mixed sex sessions: their first choice may have been that they wanted the women's only swim. However all resources cannot be removed from some women for transwomen to be able to have their preferred choice of all the resources available to them.

When self identified women are unable to understand or care about the intersectional needs and challenges experienced by women, it becomes simply a case of the more powerful group with the louder voices dominating and taking the resources wanted without regard for the cost to others. It is sex based thinking in a clear hierarchy.

Hence why women need sex based rights to enforce boundaries and protections that are not respected voluntarily by all. And to maintain their rights against those who believe that women are lesser beings, who should rightfully have less and be secondary to the needs of their betters. And whose protected characteristics are to be considered and respected only when gender identity is not involved.

I don't remember where the EqA2010 says that.

We need test cases, as publicised as possible. Daily Mail sad faces.

@buckerrucker

It would be good if someone could sue the council over the loss of the 1 hour women only swimming, on the grounds of faith discrimination. It means that some women and girls will simply never be able to swim. On safety grounds again it's utterly wrong (they may really need to be able to swim one day).

And on the grounds of indirect sex discrimination too. It's not only women of faith who want & need things like this. Whoever runs the swimming pool saw there was a legitimate need, and that a female only swim session was a proportionate way of meeting it. By running the session based on self Id they have (indirectly) excluded the group who it was aimed at, and is no longer meeting that legitimate need. There might be a separate need for a trans swim session but that's a different matter. Not a lawyer but I really hope there is a test case on this sort of thing soon. I am sure some of the gc lawyers would be interested.

Likewise with the OP's situation - I hope you get some good legal advice. It seems to me like sex discrimination as well as religious discrimination. Good luck!

Re Swimming :
One of my local pools when its open has a monthly nudist swim session.
Anybody can turn up, but they have to swim naked.
The rest of the month, everybody has to wear a swimming costume.
Those who choose to sometimes swim naked regularly swim clothed.
Personal choice does NOT give you the right to trample on the personal choice of others.

Trans rights may be human rights
but they are NOT greater than human rights

@WeRoarSometimes OP I have a Muslim colleague (we're a multi-agency service ans she sits in local government.) She contacted the Muslim Council for support last autumn about toilets and washing facilities. They sounded really supportive at the time.
I asked her this morning if she could signpost where to go within the organisation for help. She said the Muslim Council is supportive and engages well with Muslims facing workplaces issues, but her employer reported her they don't engage with the Muslim Council in line with central government. It sounded nuts so I googled it this afternoon

I mean it's not 'nuts' at all. The MCB are HUGELY problematic in their attitude to boys and girls, to Jews, Holocaust denial, to education, equal rights.

There are other Muslim organisations that don't have these attitudes or associations.

Just because someone is 'on side' with regard to something like sex-separated facilities, doesn't meant that they're not problematic in other ways.

"MCB guidance for schools says that parents of Muslim children should be allowed to withdraw their children from school activities involving mixed swimming, dance, sex and relationship education, music, drama, and figurative drawing on religious grounds."

"The MCB opposed the repeal of Section 28 on the grounds that presenting "homosexual practice as equivalent to marriage or in a morally neutral way is deeply offensive to Muslims" and that a repeal "undermines the institution of the family and will damage the fabric of our society"

see also
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-am-shamed-by-muslim-attitudes-to-the-holocaust-rl35sqq2lnp

Being 'problematic' on some issues does not negate their validity on all issues either.

This is a tolerance to all argument, regardless of whether or not you like them, agree with them (and agree with all of them on everything), and without a hierarchy of importance. There are no reasons that negate other people's equality sufficiently that they should be excluded and subordinated to other people's interests. Because all people matter and some people are not more equal than others.

I couldn't really follow your very convoluted language, but the point I was making is that no matter how much we might want to fight for women's rights and the importance of sex, the answer is not to team up with people who deny the Holocaust, are openly homophobic, and do not believe that girls have the right to an education.

Much as I wouldn't 'get into bed' with Christian fundamentalists who want to ban abortion and contraception, even if they might agree with my views when it comes to views on transgenderism.

@DropDTuning

I couldn't really follow your very convoluted language, but the point I was making is that no matter how much we might want to fight for women's rights and the importance of sex, the answer is not to team up with people who deny the Holocaust, are openly homophobic, and do not believe that girls have the right to an education.

Much as I wouldn't 'get into bed' with Christian fundamentalists who want to ban abortion and contraception, even if they might agree with my views when it comes to views on transgenderism.

And yet folks have praised Rand Paul today ...

I'll team up with women of all kinds impacted by this assault on sex based rights.

That's kind of the point.