Muslim women and trans policies in the workplace

[TroubledBetty]

Hello

The company I have been working for under a year has just published a new trans policy document which I read last week and has caused me to feel anxious about going back in to the work place.

What is making me feel ill is the statement that a 'trans colleagues are entitled to facilities they feel most comfortable using'. For non-binary people, this might mean using gender-neutral facilities or using a combination of different facilities which they feel most comfortable using.' A friend of mine who doesn't work there but is a scholar wrote in on my behalf (I have been too scared) to some EDI people. He quoted scripture from the Qu'ran which says how we cannot use toilets where there are males which aren't children or family members. But if transgender women who are male-bodied people then to myself and other women at my company they are then mixed-sex.

My friend sent on the response from the company to me this morning. It went like this 'Most XYZ offices have toilets with individual stalls with full height dividing walls and a full height lockable door. The individual toilet areas include a washbasin. There is therefore no need to come into contact with someone else whilst using the toilet facility. I am happy to discuss alternative options with XYZ if she is an office where these toilets are not available or have not been clearly signposted.'

I and my colleagues wouldn't be comfortable using these restrooms even with enclosed cubicles. We often will help each other with our veils (we cant do this in front of men) and it is a safe space for us to congregate. I know that many feminists don't approve of the wearing of veils but I am asking you for help and advice.

my thoughts are

is this legal? To restrict access to small spaces where only one Muslim can be at a time when males have freedom to go anywhere they would like

they speak of being 'comfortable' but I would be very 'uncomfortable' coming out of a cubicle to be confronted with a male. We have to pray 5 times a day and before prayer we have to wash (private parts, feet, hands, pat down our hair etc). I would feel extremely uncomfortable doing this if I know that there is a male there or that a male could enter at any time.

I have asked and although there are separate cubicles this to me still counts as 1 restroom.

I have never seen any women's restrooms in the 4 company offices with wash basins. I think these must just be in the Gender Neutral toilets. Should I ask that? Because if that is the case then these are totally inappropriate for us.

shouldn't they have sent out questionnaires to Muslim women or something like that asking us for our opinion?

I am upset by this because I thought this company values itself on being clear thinkers and this has stunned me

Sorry for the L Day recommendation, I thought they would be ok as they have supported other female issues like right to breastfeed.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think it is obligatory for public bodies (NHS, councils etc) to carry out an EIA when changing any policy

Sadly it isn't. But they are required to ensure Public Sector Equality Duty is met, and if challenged it wouldn't look good that an EIA or similar exercise hadn't been done.

It's not a public sector company, although my friend who wrote on behalf of me works for one of the largest public sector clients my employee has (in Birmingham). He is talking to his EDI team now as they implemented large single occupancy Male and Female toilets off hallways (in stairwells)

Welcome OP. I'm very sorry that you should even need to point out religion to advocate for you and your fellow women colleagues, but if it helps keep sex-specific spaces, please use it! For what it's worth, I'm very uncomfortable with men in a restroom and I come from a culture where it is normal for the sexes to swim, sunbathe and sauna with very little clothing or in the nude. Yet, It's the intimacy of what we do in toilets and changing rooms that makes most women desire privacy from the opposite sex. The reasons for codifying this in religion isn't terribly different than the reasons feminists want it codified in secular law - we deserve dignity, privacy and safety from the male sex!

Please know you are not alone. In my own country, Muslims and a minority Asian ethnic group with strict sex separate cultures lost out on a women's only swim time at a local gym because they opened it up to males who identify as women. It was so wrong and these things are happening all over. Good luck OP!!!

best of luck OP and I'd like to second the suggestion to contact the Muslim Women's Network, I have used their resources (in another context) and heard one of the leaders speak, very inspirational. Please don't think rad fems disapprove of hijab, I have had colleagues who wear hijab and its very clearly their choice. What we disapprove of is men telling women what to do

I am overwhelmed by these responses of support. I don't know where to start though.
Part of me just wants to link this thread to my friend's response.

I have been promised a small amount of money so I will contact a lawyer but I need to go armed with questions

Wishing you all the best with this OP. It’s so sad and frustrating to see women’s rights slowly but steadily stripped away. Well done for standing up for yourself.
It may also be helpful to write to your MP. They are supposed to represent you.
Are there any popular Muslim publications with a wide circulation, that might pick this story up too? The more light shone on this the better.

We all need to stand up and fight this injustice together, from female bathrooms, dressing rooms, sports, women are only getting recognition and still fighting for it on many other levels and now our rights are being eroded.
Women been arrested for speaking out against trans women taking our safe spaced. It is sad.
The really sad part is the young teens being dragged into this as an alternative lifestyle, yes it is all acceptance and love until someone gets hurt.

Please challenge this OP! Good luck!

Please don't think rad fems disapprove of hijab, I have had colleagues who wear hijab and its very clearly their choice 100%
Some of the hijabs are really beautiful, they accentuate the face and smile.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that what women wear on their heads should be solely up to them, and that they're entitled to a single-sex space to adjust it in.

Regardless of anyone's thoughts on hijab, I can't see how it serves women to make them choose between their beliefs or participation in public life.

And that's what this is. Women on MN have been raising this as a concern for a while. Trans rights should not supersede everyone else's rights. When rights and desires conflict, they must be balanced.

If the non-binary people don't feel comfortable using the facilities set aside for their sex, they the company will have to sort out alternative provision for them. But the answer cannot be to give other people your space.

And fwiw, I personally disagree with hijab, but that's completely irrelevant to being able to stand with you for your rights as a woman and religious believer to do as you wish with dignity and respect. It is absolutely fundamental to my feminism to have solidarity with women in their own contexts. Reiterating my complete support here.

Are you on twitter OP? Audrey Ludwig (@AudreySuffolk) is very good on discussions of conflicts of rights under the Equality Act. I don't know if the nature of the organisation she works for or your location would preclude her from actually taking you on as a client, but she may be able to give you some pointers on next steps and/or legal support in your area.

Agree with contacting Muslim Council/Women's Network. Also as it's a large international employee do they have employee resource groups in place? They may have an internal Women or Muslim Network you could contact too

I imagine that most women in your workplace will not want this, so worth listening out for muttering ...working together means numbers which may mean more attention. You could also change the on the doors back to original signs....

Signs on the doors...

re comments about Leigh Day. The equal pay cases at super markets etc., have been in the news.

And as I pointed out in their statement on their web site they refer to sex as a protected characteristic.

But ... have just seen they work with Fawcett so now I have my doubts! (joke)

So on the basis that they do no win no fee cases based on sex discrimination it is idiotic not to contact them if it goes as far as a legal action. Dont forget not all trans women argue that trans women are women.

But if anyone has evidence that as a law firm they have refused to help a woman or group of women fight a case on the basis of sex discrimination because they have been told it would be transphobic to do so, please do share the information. At the moment they have a lot of publicity and reputation for being the firm that will take on equality issues on the basis of sex. So if in fact they aren't preparted to do so this should be put in the public domain, properly evidenced of course.

It’s quite frustrating to see people parrot ‘but single sex provision must be a proportional means of achieving a legitimate aim...and women’s objections don’t qualify’.
I’m reminded of a comment made by a GC academic (I can’t remember who) who pointed out that “Parliament has already done the heavy lifting for us” because the exceptions in EA2010 clearly state that a facility used by more than two people can be offered as single sex, if a person reasonably objects to a member of the opposite sex being there. Hygiene facilities fit this criteria.
I’ve included the relevant part of EA 2010. Section 29 refers to service provision.
What I’m not sure is whether a private company, providing hygiene facilities for employees (not the general public), is considered a service provider.

You raise a very interesting point OP. I’m not Muslim myself, but have a couple of friends who are and they’ve shared some really insightful information regarding their culture/religion etc.... very interesting and lovely ladies.

I can absolutely see why this would be an issue for you and you Muslim colleagues OP. I’ve no advice as it’s not something I know much about, but I hope your voices are heard 🙏

Hi OP, I don’t have anything to add on the toilets side of things and hope to hear that you have success.
I just wanted to touch on the part where you say “I know that many feminists don't approve of the wearing of veils” to say that I believe women, and men, should be free to wear whatever they like, veils etc included, what I don’t agree with is when women are forced to wear them against their will (and I guess the teaching behind the thinking that women should wear them) I also don’t agree with countries banning the wearing of them, I feel it puts those women who are forced to wear them in an even harder position as well as not allowing those who want to wear them, to wear them, I think those countries should be focusing on the coercion behind the wearing, not the actual wearing and it also reminds me of the times when it was illegal for women to wear trousers.
Sorry if this is a bit of a derail!

You’re in good company op - the good women of the Home Office weren’t consulted about ‘gender neutral’ (mixed sex) facilities either. They are not happy about it!!

Women working in the Home Office are having to visit other departments to use the lavatory because so many of the building’s facilities are unisex.

Many women said that they felt uncomfortable using mixed-sex lavatories. Long queues built up outside the remaining ladies’ toilets when most people were back in the office.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c187f3a6-7087-11eb-811f-f64a7b4cb430?shareToken=14c1fafddbd64e4daf8155d12767b593

As evidenced on this thread, it is important to keep bluntly taking this down to the key point.

To enable trans people to take their preferred choice of facility

some women are being bounced from access to any facility. As with the women who have lost access to women-only swims.

They need to justify: what will happen to those employees who are excluded from any provision by making all provisions inclusive to another group?

How is this effective inclusion?

They have taken advice from a highly biased political lobby who have notoriously misrepresented the law. What balance have they sought from Muslim/Jewish/Jehovah's Witness/Traveller groups and lobbies who may have women unable to access mixed sex provisions? What women's political lobby groups to check their Equality duty for sex? What disability lobby, particularly regarding women with Autism who also often mention being unable to access mixed sex provisions? If not, how do they justify their political bias that is discriminatory against other affected groups?

And what guidance are they following that confirms that discrimination and exclusion of some women is a justifiable outcome of providing choice and affirmation for gender identity? Are there really no other, fairer, ways to meet needs that would include all?

Also worth checking:

Will men be equally excluded from their facilities? Or is this a disadvantage only borne by women? ie directly discriminatory on grounds of sex?

Your post really moved me, OP. The sisterliness of you helping each other adjust your veils is beautiful, and as others have said it's that same spirit of sisterliness and wish for privacy and dignity that women of all cultures can share. Surely anyone who has been in a ladies' loo (or had to endure a unisex one) would know this. I can't believe these unisex policies are being streamrolled out without any consideration. I will very gladly donate to any legal action or campaign about this.

This makes me furious. Also Muslim men will not be able to use their loos if transmen are sashaying around.

Others are more knowledge have replied better but just wanted to be another voice backing you