If you don’t have a gender identity - how to answer the census?

[Cwenthryth]

Following from the discussion on FPFW’s legal challenge to the ONS and discussion on Dr Nic’s appearance on Woman’s Hour yesterday, but I thought this topic deserved a separate place to discuss.

Let me make it 100% clear that I do not object to gender identity being recorded on the census, at all. It is important to many people. However I do object to the wording of the question assuming I have one, and conflating gender identity with sex, so it being very unclear as to how I should answer this question to provided accurate data.

The question is:

Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?

Tick Yes

Or

Tick No, and write in gender identity (18 characters permitted)

If you, like me, do not personally identify as having a gender identity, or indeed, as many do, politically and philosophically object to the concept of gender entirely as an oppressive, misogynistic tool of the patriarchy (whilst, just to be 100% clear, not objecting at all to others’ right to believe whatever else is right for them, identify as whatever they feel and have that identity recognised and counted on the census; I feel similarly about most organised religion but have no wish to shut down the churches and mosques!): How do you think you will answer or indeed can answer this question? Do you think it’s important that there is a co-ordinated response - I think these write-in answers are collated, otherwise how is it we know how many Jedis there are in the U.K. (390,127 in 2001, if you are interested. In Brighton 2.6% of the population were Jedi).

It’s voluntary, we don’t have to answer. We can leave it blank. I worry this will not record us though.

Or we can tick No, and write something in - something accurate and descriptive - NONE, NO GENDER IDENTITY, GENDER ATHEIST, NO BELIEF IN GENDER....? Or, perhaps if you would identify with this, GENDER ABOLITIONIST?

Or use the space as a protest (not sure about this at all - this is data collection) - SEX NOT GENDER, GENDER IS PATRIARCHY, GENDER IS MISOGYNY (thanks @EmpressWitchDoesntBurn), SMASH THE PATRIARCHY....

I’m not sure what to do for the best, to be accurate, for the greater good. This is an historical record of national importance. Would really appreciate exploring this on here!

[HelenDrinkwater]

Does the 18 characters include spaces? "I don't have a gender" is few enough characters I think.

[supercritter]

sexinthecensus.org/ this is the plan to protest lawfully so don't get fined

[Worrysaboutalot]

If you type no, you will be counted as trans, so don't do that! We all want accurate number of trans people recorded!

There is a website linked to the feminist groups who issued a statement to census about the sex issue. The website will have details on the best way to object to the census.

[MildredPuppy]

Its so tempting to just write unicorn. I cant honestly answer the question.

[RandomMess]

I thought we were all getting paper copies of the census! We had a postcard through saying to look for it?

[Jurassicperk]

Just enough characters for

GENDER IS BULLSHIT

If I'm feeling brave, I'll go with that.

[Gcnq]

Can't you just skip the question?

[Lifeaintalwaysempty]

With the wording as it is I unfortunately think the best thing to do is leave it blank to avoid risking an unintended consequence of inflating the trans figures as this is the specific question to capture that.

[midgedude]

If unexpected numbers if trans and few women were picked up they might work it out for themselves

[UpDownQuark]

‘What do you mean??’ fits

[UpDownQuark]

That question is so badly worded anyway. I started reading it in a way that expected ‘the gender you identify is as... [something] as [something]’, and I’m fairly literate and have English as a first language. I would have no chance of reading it correctly in my second or weaker languages.

[Firefliess]

I think your best options might be to simply tick yes (if you accept that you have a gender identity and it's the same as your sex), or to leave it blank (if you don't accept the existence of gender identities). It's not too bad a worded question. They've said "sex recorded at birth" which is accurate and doesn't imply anyone "assigned" you a sex or a gender.

[Cwenthryth]

@Firefliess

I think your best options might be to simply tick yes (if you accept that you have a gender identity and it's the same as your sex), or to leave it blank (if you don't accept the existence of gender identities). It's not too bad a worded question. They've said "sex recorded at birth" which is accurate and doesn't imply anyone "assigned" you a sex or a gender.

They haven’t asked “sex recorded at birth” unfortunately. They ask “what is your sex” and the guidance invites you to base it on documents that declare self-identified gender - that is the whole basis of FPFW’s legal challenge if you read the other thread.

Also neither of your options apply to me - clearly I don’t have a gender identity as stated in the OP - it’s not that I “don’t accept I have one”, I just don’t have one. I do accept others have them. Please don’t derail the thread questioning this - I don’t have a gender identity, no debate, please respect that. The discussion is on how to respond to the census question, given this fact.

I don’t have a religion but I have the option for that to be recorded.

I feel that leaving the question blank means that my beliefs on gender are being excluded, to be honest.

Thanks for the link I’ll have a read.

[Tibtom]

Do they define 'gender'?

[MaMaLa321]

Can I ask a question? I don't want to derail a useful thread, but I'm totally out of the loop on this.
Are we not going to be asked what sex we are, but are instead being asked 'Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?'.

[NecessaryScene1]

Are we not going to be asked what sex we are, but are instead being asked 'Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?'.

As I've seen it the first question is "what is your sex?". Possible answers are only "Male" or "Female", and the guidance is in dispute.

The second question is as described in OP - "Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?". Possible answers "Yes" or "No", and then a free entry box if you answer no.

To us gender atheists this is like asking "Is the religion you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?"

I think we logically have to answer "No", and then some form of "none". But it would be good to try to standardise responses.

The other issue is that I read somewhere tthe ONS saying that they had some list of "real genders" they'd use to make sure "nonsense" in that field like "Jedi" wasn't counted. Don't think we've seen the official list of real genders though.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

The other issue is that I read somewhere tthe ONS saying that they had some list of "real genders" they'd use to make sure "nonsense" in that field like "Jedi" wasn't counted. Don't think we've seen the official list of real genders though.

The ONS, like the rest of government, is supposed to be transparent. They should have to publish this.

[MistyGreenAndBlue]

Can I circle the whole section and write "BOLLOCKS" across it in red?

[Cwenthryth]

The other issue is that I read somewhere tthe ONS saying that they had some list of "real genders" they'd use to make sure "nonsense" in that field like "Jedi" wasn't counted. Don't think we've seen the official list of real genders though.
That’s somewhat concerning - where did you get that from? May be worth asking ONS directly perhaps (although they’ve ignored my questions on Twitter about clarifying the sex guidance when an individual has different sex markers on passport and birth certificate). Perhaps a FOI if they ignore us.

[NecessaryScene1]

That’s somewhat concerning - where did you get that from?

I'm going to have to dig it up. It wasn't quite as literal as I wrote there - it was something to the effect that they'd been taking expert guidance on genders to filter and produce quality statistical information from that field.

I was just somewhat boggled by it - that there are gender "experts" and the ONS is consulting them...

[Justhadathought]

It seem the census results are going to be questionable right from the start, because I can well imagine some ticking yes for 'female' even if not.

[UppityPuppity]

Thanks for the thread - this is a really important issue which is separate from the Sex In The Census campaign

The second question is as described in OP - "Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?". Possible answers "Yes" or "No", and then a free entry box if you answer no.

I like PPs very much want the data to be accurate. What they should have done is given an N/A option.

I am very keen that Stonewall can’t use the answers to say 99% of the population identify as c**.

I will get a paper copy. My most honest answer would be N/A and write gender is bollocks. But my nearest honest answer is to answer ‘No’ (I don’t have a gender that correlates with my sex) and to write gender is bollocks.

[MaMaLa321]

So would the best thing to do be to leave it blank?

[JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown]

I was tempted to just put 'none' in as I don't have a gender identity but the risk then is that trans figures aren't counted accurately.

The advice from the sex and the census website is:

Should I answer the question on gender identity?
Question 27 asks “Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?”. This is a voluntary question, so there is no need to answer it. Both ‘yes’ and ‘no’ responses may be counted as support for the way in which this question is phrased, which we believe is flawed.
Answering ‘yes’ to this question suggests your sex is the same as a gender identity (which contradicts the letter asking ONS to treat your sex only as a declaration of biological sex). Answering ‘no’ would mean that you will be counted as having a transgender status. Unless you identify as transgender, we suggest skipping this question, so that accurate data on the trans population can be collected.

This seems like the most sensible to me.

[NecessaryScene1]

I don’t have a gender that correlates with my sex

But that's not quite the question - the question assumed you had a gender and asked if it corresponded. (Further assuming that gender is a thing which can correspond to a sex, but then the free field suggests it can be correspond to neither).

I do computers, and in them it's possible for a value to set to "NaN" - "Not a Number". When you compare those, you get funny answers. If X is set to NaN, and ask questions, you're told:

"Is X equal to 2?" - No.
"Is X greater than 2?" - No.
"Is X less than 2?" - No.
"Is X not equal to 2?" - Yes.
"Is X equal to X?" - No.
"Is X not equal to X?" - Yes.

Rather leaves you scratching your head about X. A NaN is a value that is not equal to anything, not even itself, nor is it greater or lesser than anything.

So if your "gender" is "not-a-gender", because you don't have one, following the same pattern, and answering this census question, you'd answer "No", and then you'd put some form of "Not a gender".

Now, some genderologists might answer "No" and "agender", but it doesn't seem quite the same - I think they'd struggle less on the Yes/No, because from what I've seen they usually are fine thinking of "agender" as a "gender", paradoxically.

Is it useful to distinguish "agender" genderologists from gender atheists? I think so. But we need to agree on a common answer.

A year or two ago we were using the term "gender-free" to try to make that concrete, thanks to someone on this board angling for a position on that basis, but that seems to have lost traction. Maybe go back to that?