If you don’t have a gender identity - how to answer the census?

[Cwenthryth]

Following from the discussion on FPFW’s legal challenge to the ONS and discussion on Dr Nic’s appearance on Woman’s Hour yesterday, but I thought this topic deserved a separate place to discuss.

Let me make it 100% clear that I do not object to gender identity being recorded on the census, at all. It is important to many people. However I do object to the wording of the question assuming I have one, and conflating gender identity with sex, so it being very unclear as to how I should answer this question to provided accurate data.

The question is:

Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?

Tick Yes

Or

Tick No, and write in gender identity (18 characters permitted)

If you, like me, do not personally identify as having a gender identity, or indeed, as many do, politically and philosophically object to the concept of gender entirely as an oppressive, misogynistic tool of the patriarchy (whilst, just to be 100% clear, not objecting at all to others’ right to believe whatever else is right for them, identify as whatever they feel and have that identity recognised and counted on the census; I feel similarly about most organised religion but have no wish to shut down the churches and mosques!): How do you think you will answer or indeed can answer this question? Do you think it’s important that there is a co-ordinated response - I think these write-in answers are collated, otherwise how is it we know how many Jedis there are in the U.K. (390,127 in 2001, if you are interested. In Brighton 2.6% of the population were Jedi).

It’s voluntary, we don’t have to answer. We can leave it blank. I worry this will not record us though.

Or we can tick No, and write something in - something accurate and descriptive - NONE, NO GENDER IDENTITY, GENDER ATHEIST, NO BELIEF IN GENDER....? Or, perhaps if you would identify with this, GENDER ABOLITIONIST?

Or use the space as a protest (not sure about this at all - this is data collection) - SEX NOT GENDER, GENDER IS PATRIARCHY, GENDER IS MISOGYNY (thanks @EmpressWitchDoesntBurn), SMASH THE PATRIARCHY....

I’m not sure what to do for the best, to be accurate, for the greater good. This is an historical record of national importance. Would really appreciate exploring this on here!

I will leave it blank.

Can I put "terf"?

Surely even Stonewall couldn't claim that as one of the many definitions under their umbrella?

(that's a joke, BTW. I think.)

Thankyou pigeon. Please understand that there are a lot of people who seek to stop women talking about things we want to talk about by (trying to appear to) innocently derail discussions to lead women to justify their starting positions rather discuss the actual matter at hand. I welcome your apology and genuinely am certain if you wish to discuss your approach to gender it could generate an interesting discussion on another thread.

Can I put "terf"?

Surely even Stonewall couldn't claim that as one of the many definitions under their umbrella?

I think by their own rules they’d have to, if you identify as terfgender, acceptance without exception, and it’s not your sex at birth - boom you’re trans! JOKE FOR THE HARD OF UNDERSTANDING READING THIS although really, it’d be fairly hypocritical of SW et al to reject anyone’s self identifed gender, surely? They’ve lobbied for a free text box as it was incredibly important to them that everyone was able to express their exact individual identity and not have to choose from a list. They’ve invited people to write whatever they want. So why wouldn’t we write what is true for us as people of no gender?

It's a voluntary question. No one needs to answer it.

Yes, it’s voluntary. What are your thoughts on answering it?

@cheeseismydownfall

(that's a joke, BTW. I think.)

I know how you feel.

@Cwenthryth.

This makes sense to me sexinthecensus.org/f-a-q/

Should I answer the question on gender identity?

Question 27 asks “Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?”. This is a voluntary question, so there is no need to answer it. Both ‘yes’ and ‘no’ responses may be counted as support for the way in which this question is phrased, which we believe is flawed.
Answering ‘yes’ to this question suggests your sex is the same as a gender identity (which contradicts the letter asking ONS to treat your sex only as a declaration of biological sex). Answering ‘no’ would mean that you will be counted as having a transgender status. Unless you identify as transgender, we suggest skipping this question, so that accurate data on the trans population can be collected.

I don't think there's a way to 'protest' the question from 'within' the question - doing so accepts its terms.

Yes - I addressed that earlier in the thread sorry - the guidance says may be counted as trans - they don’t know - my response is 1. Why is that a problem? And 2. By SW Umbrella definition we are, so that’s their problem.

My feeling is that we have been excluded from this, and to ignore the question is to agree with that exclusion. Yes it is about protest, but it also - more importantly on the census - about being accurately recorded, as accurate as they will allow with their poorly worded question.

Please understand that there are a lot of people who seek to stop women talking about things we want to talk about by (trying to appear to) innocently derail discussions to lead women to justify their starting positions rather discuss the actual matter at hand.

@Cwenthryth, genuinely not me. I believe in preserving single sex safe spaces for instance. (Single sex spaces should allow for all kinds of genders within them. Single sex needn't be single gender. In fact I believe this is the only way to ensure people are free from gender/to express their gender in any way they choose whilst upholding protected characteristics). I fully acknowledge the problematic nature of prioritising gender over sex. However, I believe any concepts which have non rigid cultural definitions are an opportunity for me to take whichever meaning I find suitable. I am pragmatic and will choose the meaning which allows me the most freedom to operate as I believe I should.

@Cwenthryth

Yes - I addressed that earlier in the thread sorry - the guidance says may be counted as trans - they don’t know - my response is 1. Why is that a problem? And 2. By SW Umbrella definition we are, so that’s their problem.

My feeling is that we have been excluded from this, and to ignore the question is to agree with that exclusion. Yes it is about protest, but it also - more importantly on the census - about being accurately recorded, as accurate as they will allow with their poorly worded question.

I agree. I have no problem in being identified as trans if that is what is meant by being trans.

From reading the research behind the question I think the only way to have an impact would be to not answer the sex or gender question at all as that is what they seemed bothered about (from their research with 52 people "16 participants were trans, 7 participants were members of trans ally groups and 16 participants were members of women’s groups. 16 cisgender participants were not members of either a women’s group or a trans ally group and included males and females").

Bump

Think I'm going to leave blank.

I feel like I’m going to have to allocate half a day to thoroughly researching the whole thing. Goodness knows when.

Have read the thread and despite the sage advice, my annoyance with the nonsensical gender question leaves me wanting to do more than ignore it.

I have requested a paper copy. I want to do what lots of others do - in the interests of a clear and united front.

Is there anything to be said for covering the question with a plain sticky label so it is “removed”?

Does anyone have the text of the Sex in the Census template letter yet that demands that your sex is recorded as biological sex not self-identified sex?

I wonder if an additional wording that our answers of NONE/NO GENDER IDENTITY/GENDER ATHEIST etc are to be accurately recorded and specifically not grouped into an “agender” or “non binary” grouping during analysis, would be worth considering.

I just thought I’d bump this now it’s census weekend.

After a lot of thought, and wandering through discussion on Twitter

twitter.com/boodleoops/status/1372112454688382979?s=21

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1372139717853114369?s=21

I think I’m going to leave the question blank, but decorate all around it in purple and green biros explaining why it is a rubbish question, and that I do not have a gender identity.

For me it’s like asking for my spirit beast or favourite telly tubby.

Thanks. Having read this thread and the very well-reasoned replies I think it's important to leave this Q blank if you don't have a gender identity.

I fear there are many people (I know at least one) who are just learning about the consequences of assuming all humans have a gender identity and will be ticking "no" and writing in a "clever" answer.

Due to the lack of clear and unambiguous guidance on this question, any data from this is clearly going to be largely meaningless.

I didn't order a paper copy in time. I'm very cross with myself.
Is there any way to send the template letter anyway? Or register disapproval actively in another way?

I will not be answering and will be sending the letter linked to earlier. Re linking here:

sexinthecensus.org/

I ordered a paper copy last weekend but it hasn't arrived yet. How long does it usually take?

Imagine if someone asked you whether you are are a man or a woman. Go with your answer to that question.

I'm like Durtysarf. I ordered a paper copy but it hasn't arrived, which is really annoying as now I'll have to do it on line and can't include the letter I was going to send in with it.

I have put a blank sticker on it.