If you don’t have a gender identity - how to answer the census?

[Cwenthryth]

Following from the discussion on FPFW’s legal challenge to the ONS and discussion on Dr Nic’s appearance on Woman’s Hour yesterday, but I thought this topic deserved a separate place to discuss.

Let me make it 100% clear that I do not object to gender identity being recorded on the census, at all. It is important to many people. However I do object to the wording of the question assuming I have one, and conflating gender identity with sex, so it being very unclear as to how I should answer this question to provided accurate data.

The question is:

Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?

Tick Yes

Or

Tick No, and write in gender identity (18 characters permitted)

If you, like me, do not personally identify as having a gender identity, or indeed, as many do, politically and philosophically object to the concept of gender entirely as an oppressive, misogynistic tool of the patriarchy (whilst, just to be 100% clear, not objecting at all to others’ right to believe whatever else is right for them, identify as whatever they feel and have that identity recognised and counted on the census; I feel similarly about most organised religion but have no wish to shut down the churches and mosques!): How do you think you will answer or indeed can answer this question? Do you think it’s important that there is a co-ordinated response - I think these write-in answers are collated, otherwise how is it we know how many Jedis there are in the U.K. (390,127 in 2001, if you are interested. In Brighton 2.6% of the population were Jedi).

It’s voluntary, we don’t have to answer. We can leave it blank. I worry this will not record us though.

Or we can tick No, and write something in - something accurate and descriptive - NONE, NO GENDER IDENTITY, GENDER ATHEIST, NO BELIEF IN GENDER....? Or, perhaps if you would identify with this, GENDER ABOLITIONIST?

Or use the space as a protest (not sure about this at all - this is data collection) - SEX NOT GENDER, GENDER IS PATRIARCHY, GENDER IS MISOGYNY (thanks @EmpressWitchDoesntBurn), SMASH THE PATRIARCHY....

I’m not sure what to do for the best, to be accurate, for the greater good. This is an historical record of national importance. Would really appreciate exploring this on here!

I should add that they also advise asking for a paper census and then adding a letter (they have a template) in which you object to the way the ONS will be recording your data around sex and gender.

sexinthecensus.org/f-a-q/

isn't it about finding how many people may need smear tests, ovarian cancer treatment, prostate cancer treatment, testicular cancer treatment? Possibly even obstetric services given that only biological females give birth?

the idea of the census is to help plan future needs.

we suggest skipping this question - This seems like the most sensible to me.

Having read that, fully agree. My previous tortuous post was working on the assumption you had to answer.

It would certainly be better to not touch this question at all. And I think that would quite naturally distinguish a GC person from an "agender" genderologist or "nonbinary" who will very readily fill it in to overcome the shame/annoyance of having to answer the previous non-voluntary sex question.

It is kind of the same as if they asked.

Does your current religious denomination match that which you we brought up as?

Yes
or
No, write in your current religious denomination.

Can't say you don't have one. They will put down No as you following another religion. Nobody can be an atheist.

Can't say you don't have one.

Right, but in this case the "gender" question is voluntary, so you can just skip it. That seems fine.

What wouldn't be fine is if they then lumped the people who didn't answer it with the "yes"es and infer or assume a "gender identity" equal to their sex. We'll have to watch out for them doing that.

(There was a thread about Labour doing this here the other day).

isn't it about finding how many people may need smear tests, ovarian cancer treatment, prostate cancer treatment, testicular cancer treatment? Possibly even obstetric services given that only biological females give birth?
That’s why the guidance for the sex question suggesting people answer with their self-identified gender rather than their sex recorded at birth is an issue; however that is not relevant to the gender identity question.

It would certainly be better to not touch this question at all. And I think that would quite naturally distinguish a GC person from an "agender" genderologist or "nonbinary" who will very readily fill it in to overcome the shame/annoyance of having to answer the previous non-voluntary sex question.
Currently, I remain unconvinced by this personally. I don’t think the distinction is evidenced by ignoring the question.

Sex and the Census argue that Answering ‘no’ would mean that you will be counted as having a transgender status. Well....by the Stonewall umbrella definition then we probably do (I disagree as Stonewall and I have very different philosophical beliefs on this) - if that leads to the census inaccurately recording the number of transgender people, then the fault lies with the question and how they interpret the data they collect, not how we attempt to best answer it to represent our truth.

I was thinking about this this morning and I came to the conclusion in your last post Cwenthryth, they've asked me a question in an official document and I'm going to answer it honestly and that's entirely up to their phrasing of the question. If they'd offered "I think gender stereotypes are a load of bollocks and I'm not going to identify with anything that oppresses my sex" then I would have ticked that, but they don't so 🤷🏻‍♀️. I can't actually believe they're going to get quality data from that question at all.

the fault lies with the question and how they interpret the data they collect, not how we attempt to best answer it to represent our truth.
Agreed. I'm currently thinking that I will answer 'no' and add one of the 'clarifications' offered in the OP.
If we balls up (to coin a phrase) their stupid census then they might ask better questions next time. They can't say they didn't know about this shitshow waiting to happen.

I think it's best to ignore it. The problem is that many people will just tick yes without thinking about it, or because while 'gender identity' isn't something that they're bothered about they see the yes as the only 'I'm not trans' option, when of course it's much more like the 'are you still the same religion' analogy.

They should have put clearer guidance that you should omit the question if you don't recognise 'gender identity' as being something you have. Or had a clear 'none' option.

I don't have a gender identity and feel quite strongly about being categorised as cis so will be putting no, and none. If that makes me trans statistically so be it.

The sex question is compulsory.

The gender question is optional. If you answer it to say you're genderfree, or whatever, this could be used to boost the numbers of people with gender identities in the UK.

It's best to totally ignore it.

@jellyfrizz

I don't have a gender identity and feel quite strongly about being categorised as cis so will be putting no, and none. If that makes me trans statistically so be it.

I think we lose the moral highground if we do that tbh.

Either we believe stats should be accurate, or we don't.

Also, boosting the numbers of trans people inaccurately is an own goal.

I am thinking that we should write to the ONS before we request our paper forms and tell them that we will be requesting paper forms because of the sex question.

I am also going to state that I will not answer the sex question whilst I don't trust them to care enough about the answer to be truthful.

And finally, I will ask them how I determine my gender identity.

In all conscious I cannot take part in a census where they do not care about accuracy.

We could write and ask them how they will treat a no/none response.

I feel like we can make the census people work hard with our queries.

Remember when lots of people put Jedi Knight as religion. We should come up with something to put so quite a lot gets recorded and the media highlights it. 😂

Couldn't the government randomly assign everyone a gender identity, using something like ERNIE (but with a gender-neutral title, natch), then we can put that down on the census form?

The question is:

Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?

Tick Yes

Or

Tick No, and write in gender identity (18 characters permitted)

What if the answer is sometimes? For example, how will Philip/Pip Bunce answer that question?

Also, boosting the numbers of trans people inaccurately is an own goal.
In what way? Not sure I agree - I don’t have any kind of goal that is to the detriment of trans people.

Due to the habit of various lobbyists/groups to assume that anyone who is not transgender, non-binary etc therefore must be cisgender (massive logic fail from our point of view), if I don’t answer the question by that logic I may be counted as cisgender, and I have a huge issue with that as it is inaccurate and offensive to me personally. (I understand only the ‘yes’ answers truly represent actual cisgender people, or those who don’t fully understand the implications.... but not everyone using or abusing this data will know that or possibly care about that).

Answering ‘no’ and ‘NONE’ or a similar alternative (GENDER ATHEIST is how I explain to muggles) is the only way I can see at the moment to have our positions recorded and also the most honest response to the question.

A new group called Sex in the Census has a useful website:
sexinthecensus.org

@Cwenthryth

Also, boosting the numbers of trans people inaccurately is an own goal. In what way? Not sure I agree - I don’t have any kind of goal that is to the detriment of trans people.

Due to the habit of various lobbyists/groups to assume that anyone who is not transgender, non-binary etc therefore must be cisgender (massive logic fail from our point of view), if I don’t answer the question by that logic I may be counted as cisgender, and I have a huge issue with that as it is inaccurate and offensive to me personally. (I understand only the ‘yes’ answers truly represent actual cisgender people, or those who don’t fully understand the implications.... but not everyone using or abusing this data will know that or possibly care about that).

Answering ‘no’ and ‘NONE’ or a similar alternative (GENDER ATHEIST is how I explain to muggles) is the only way I can see at the moment to have our positions recorded and also the most honest response to the question.

I think it comes down to how they're going to record it. If they're just adding up the number of 'nos' then its going to record you as trans if you fill that in, no matter what you put in the box. Honestly, there's no right way to do it, is there? The whole thing is a bloody mess and isn't going to show accurate data simply because they've made massive assumptions based on ideology not science.

Please do NOT answer the gender question. This is a voluntary question. It has been put in in response to campaigning by an unrepresentative group.

Do not dignify the concept by acknowledging it with a response. If it looks like lots of people are interested they will include it next time.

It is vital that this doesn't happen.

Another reason for doing this is that it is obvious that the long term aim is to get rid of the quesiton on sex and replace it with gender identity.

Stonewall et al have been so sucessful in creating an idea not just in schools but official bureaucracy that there is no difference (just count the times the word gender is misused in place of sex).

The inaccuracy of the sex question has already happened not just since 2011 when the census permitted it but because some have already on their own volition ticked the sex question to match their "identity".

We just have to hope the FPFW legal challenge is sucessful.

We know that attitudes have been entrenched, and even if officials think they might have been wrong they wont back down, unless and until instructed to by a court.

NObody in the census office is going to take any note of personal comments however clever and well crafter we might think they are. Equally they are not going to take into account anything written on paper. They will be working under a strict time scale to transfer onto computer anything written on paper. They will be pissed off by this. they will ignore personal comments.

LEAVE IT BLANK!

I’ll tick “No” & write “None” or “No gender ID”.

@stumbledin

Please do NOT answer the gender question. This is a voluntary question. It has been put in in response to campaigning by an unrepresentative group.

Do not dignify the concept by acknowledging it with a response. If it looks like lots of people are interested they will include it next time.

It is vital that this doesn't happen.

Another reason for doing this is that it is obvious that the long term aim is to get rid of the quesiton on sex and replace it with gender identity.

Stonewall et al have been so sucessful in creating an idea not just in schools but official bureaucracy that there is no difference (just count the times the word gender is misused in place of sex).

The inaccuracy of the sex question has already happened not just since 2011 when the census permitted it but because some have already on their own volition ticked the sex question to match their "identity".

We just have to hope the FPFW legal challenge is sucessful.

We know that attitudes have been entrenched, and even if officials think they might have been wrong they wont back down, unless and until instructed to by a court.

NObody in the census office is going to take any note of personal comments however clever and well crafter we might think they are. Equally they are not going to take into account anything written on paper. They will be working under a strict time scale to transfer onto computer anything written on paper. They will be pissed off by this. they will ignore personal comments.

LEAVE IT BLANK!

Agree with this

NObody in the census office is going to take any note of personal comments however clever and well crafter we might think they are. Equally they are not going to take into account anything written on paper. They will be working under a strict time scale to transfer onto computer anything written on paper. They will be pissed off by this. they will ignore personal comments.

Is my memory playing up or was “Jedi warrior” not widely enough reported on the census that it made the stats?

Why would “No gender ID” or Gender ID: “none” not be similarly helpful?

Will you be able to ignore the gender question if you fill in the online version? Or is that why people are requesting paper copies?