If you don’t have a gender identity - how to answer the census?

[Cwenthryth]

Following from the discussion on FPFW’s legal challenge to the ONS and discussion on Dr Nic’s appearance on Woman’s Hour yesterday, but I thought this topic deserved a separate place to discuss.

Let me make it 100% clear that I do not object to gender identity being recorded on the census, at all. It is important to many people. However I do object to the wording of the question assuming I have one, and conflating gender identity with sex, so it being very unclear as to how I should answer this question to provided accurate data.

The question is:

Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?

Tick Yes

Or

Tick No, and write in gender identity (18 characters permitted)

If you, like me, do not personally identify as having a gender identity, or indeed, as many do, politically and philosophically object to the concept of gender entirely as an oppressive, misogynistic tool of the patriarchy (whilst, just to be 100% clear, not objecting at all to others’ right to believe whatever else is right for them, identify as whatever they feel and have that identity recognised and counted on the census; I feel similarly about most organised religion but have no wish to shut down the churches and mosques!): How do you think you will answer or indeed can answer this question? Do you think it’s important that there is a co-ordinated response - I think these write-in answers are collated, otherwise how is it we know how many Jedis there are in the U.K. (390,127 in 2001, if you are interested. In Brighton 2.6% of the population were Jedi).

It’s voluntary, we don’t have to answer. We can leave it blank. I worry this will not record us though.

Or we can tick No, and write something in - something accurate and descriptive - NONE, NO GENDER IDENTITY, GENDER ATHEIST, NO BELIEF IN GENDER....? Or, perhaps if you would identify with this, GENDER ABOLITIONIST?

Or use the space as a protest (not sure about this at all - this is data collection) - SEX NOT GENDER, GENDER IS PATRIARCHY, GENDER IS MISOGYNY (thanks @EmpressWitchDoesntBurn), SMASH THE PATRIARCHY....

I’m not sure what to do for the best, to be accurate, for the greater good. This is an historical record of national importance. Would really appreciate exploring this on here!

There were thousands of Jedi responses Ricki - enough to make it statistically significant. We'd need to somehow ensure a mass campaign, all filling it in the same way for it to figure at all. Don't think that's possible.
390,127. And don’t underestimate women I don’t know what the threshold is for a common answer to be collated/recorded, or statistically significant.

I think I just feel that the concept of boycotting a question that is voluntary anyway is somewhat defunct; they’re inviting us not to answer it. They (SW captured ONS) don’t want to record us. There will be no way to differentiate who is boycotting, who is indifferent, who doesn’t care or understand the question, who is ashamed of what their honest answer would be or unable to answer truthfully because of control in their household. I am free to answer honestly; I am not ashamed; I care deeply and understand the issue; why should I be excluded?

Any answer to that question will either be recorded as 'trans' or 'cis'.
The problem there lies with the umbrella definition of trans - by which we are trans. As are all gender non conforming people.

I can't help but feel that there has to be a mass boycott for this to be effective. There's not really enough time to coordinate - and yes I know it is against the law, there's a fine, etc. But I think at this point maybe something much more visible is needed. What happens if you refuse to pay the fine? Can't we make this bigger news if we refuse to take part in the census and refuse to pay the fine? I guess there have to be enough of us to make that effective.

Sadly those of us in notifiable professions do not have the option of risking any kind of offence as even minor unrelated offences have to be declared to our regulatory bodies and can prevent us from working.

Probably a very stupid question, but is everyone here aware that the discussion of the whole process of formulating, adding and removing Census questions is right there in the bowels of their website for anyone to read if they can find it?

I was going to look there today for inspiration on what to do, but work suddenly got busy.

I’m sure many of you have been through it with a fine-toothed comb but for those of you who haven’t it is here;

www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/genderidentity

Actually that was a whole lot more findable than it used to be, which is interesting in itself.

Just straight away on that first link on 'Gender identity research and testing plan', they state that sex is biologically determined. How does that correlate to having a question which about your sex being according to a label you have requested to identify according to a 'legal' sex.

And when they refer to your gender to be an internal perception (or notion) of yourself, why has it any link to your biologically determined sex?

Your ages is a biological reality too. Can we now have a 'legal age' too?

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) 2021 Census topic consultation identified a clear need among data users for data about gender identity, particularly in relation to planning services for, and allocating resources to interventions to support this community in England and Wales.

Love it. There was a clear need. What determines a clear need. Also they introduced 'gender identity' in relation to the planning of services to 'this community'.

Well, well, well, not in relation for planning services for, and allocating resources to interventions to support this community on the real material need for correctly sexed and biologically determined bodies. For a notion in your head yes. For a material sexed body (lets face it will only be women who get screwed out of resources here), nah. You can now identify your biologically determined sexed body as not so.
There will not in any way be more resources for women if males tick as women and do the gender identity box. The resources will probably be taken from women to set up interventions etc away from women.

They label those who aren't 'Trans' as 'Cis'.

-Did they ask their permission to identify them as such?

-Women are half the population, was that represented?

-If there were objection to your sex being that registered at birth for you sex question, why was it deemed ok to compare your sex registered at birth with your subsequent view of your 'gender'? This should have the same basis as the sex question - your legal sex.

Or a choice of sex if you have chosen to identify differently on different official documents?

ONS have made it legal for some people to choose to say anything they want, while others are boxed in with worry of an offence if they find this ideology oppressive or diametrically opposed to their beliefs.

Some activists of this ideology probably want to get rid of the sex question which is based in material reality.

@Cailleach1

Just straight away on that first link on 'Gender identity research and testing plan', they state that sex is biologically determined. How does that correlate to having a question which about your sex being according to a label you have requested to identify according to a 'legal' sex.

And when they refer to your gender to be an internal perception (or notion) of yourself, why has it any link to your biologically determined sex?

Your ages is a biological reality too. Can we now have a 'legal age' too?

Do you think it was internal wrangling, or woke pandering or just confusion?

As I say, I only glanced through briefly and it’s mind boggling to try to follow their machinations and their journey through towards formulating the question.

I do think understanding what the internal politics at the census office was/is will help us know how to respond, if that’s discernible.

I’m just starting to amble through some of that, Thankyou for the link.... but this is the problem right here:

“Testing included respondents from a wide range of backgrounds. This included those who identify their gender as different from their sex registered at birth as well as those who identify their gender as being the same as their sex registered at birth”

They excluded the possibility of “no gender identity” from the start.

At this point I think voluntarily sitting out the question is to go along with that exclusion. If the only other argument against is “false” inflation of trans statistics - as I’ve said by umbrella definitions they class us as trans anyway - I’m not really convinced that’s a huge problem. If it is then it just highlights the issue with the exclusionary question design and umbrella definition.

This is from the latest guidance on that link: www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/genderidentity/census2021qualitativeresearchontheguidanceforthequestionwhatisyoursex

Notes for: Research aims
The trans population is defined as the population whose gender identity differs from their sex registered at birth. This includes those with non-binary identities.

@jellyfrizz

This is from the latest guidance on that link: www.ons.gov.uk/census/censustransformationprogramme/questiondevelopment/genderidentity/census2021qualitativeresearchontheguidanceforthequestionwhatisyoursex

Notes for: Research aims
The trans population is defined as the population whose gender identity differs from their sex registered at birth. This includes those with non-binary identities.

So, the majority of people, from a radfem pov!

So, the majority of people, from a radfem pov!

Yes. It also says this though:

While cisgender participants, including those who were members of women’s groups, expressed views, none of the guidance options tested would have an impact on their own response or elicit further action, such as campaigning against the question.

Which makes me wonder if they actually asked those members of women's group how they identified or just assumed.

Probably went hunting for libfem women’s groups to consultant.

Consult.

The highest negative impact on accuracy and reliability is anticipated if sex registered at birth was collected due to the likely negative impact on response rates caused by the perceived invasion of privacy. The data need is not considered to be strong enough to justify collecting this.

??!!

uksa.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/publication/methodology-for-decision-making-on-the-2021-census-sex-question-concept-and-associated-guidance/#section-4-conclusion

I can honestly answer female sex and gender the same as my sex. Yes, gender is a social construct however I do view myself as female and presenting as a female (because I am female sex and there are no rules regarding how you present that). I wouldn't view myself as male gender if I had traditionally stereotypically male interests/fashion tastes, either, because I believe gender is what people view themselves to be. If I were trans I expect I would be uncomfortable with my sex for whatever reason and want to present differently to how I viewed people of my sex and therefore express this through gender. Unravelling the why people aren't comfortable with their sex and why they think this doesn't match with how they wish to present themselves, in terms of gender, is more complicated. What can get offensive is people apportioning particular social stereotyped attributes to a particular (sexed) gender.

Because if gender is a social construct/refers to societal 'norms' then fine - we are members of society and therefore have a right to define it.

That’s great for you, Pensivepigeon, but that’s not how many of us feel or identify. There’s a lot to unpack in how you describe your understanding of gender, but this isn’t the place for it, this thread is for those of us that do not identify with gender, feel we do not have a gender, object to having a gender identity being assumed, to discuss how to respond to the upcoming census question.

If you want to discuss how us gender atheist, genderfree, gender abolitionists came to our points of view please do start a new thread it would be interesting to explore.

I just thought it was worth mentioning, @Cwenthryth that gender, being a social construct, means that it can mean whatever people and society wants it to. An alternative to rejecting it (because it is a cultural concept rather fact) is 'owning it' and redefining the concept so it fits.

So female gender = dress in accordance or not in accordance with traditional female stereotypes, have interests in accordance or not in accordance with traditional stereotypes.

Male gender = dress in accordance or not in accordance with traditional male stereotypes, have interests in accordance or not in accordance with traditional male stereotypes.

However, I accept not everyone has the same opinion as me. Just thought it a neat way to reconcile the current context.

than fact

@pensivepigeon

I just thought it was worth mentioning, @Cwenthryth that gender, being a social construct, means that it can mean whatever people and society wants it to. An alternative to rejecting it (because it is a cultural concept rather fact) is 'owning it' and redefining the concept so it fits.

So female gender = dress in accordance or not in accordance with traditional female stereotypes, have interests in accordance or not in accordance with traditional stereotypes.

Male gender = dress in accordance or not in accordance with traditional male stereotypes, have interests in accordance or not in accordance with traditional male stereotypes.

However, I accept not everyone has the same opinion as me. Just thought it a neat way to reconcile the current context.

Um... that's just an over complicated way of rejecting it isn't it?

@ErrolTheDragon
Only in explanation. Very simple in practice.

Again, really interesting and good for you, but please don’t derail the thread - and respect the women here who reject or otherwise do not identify with gender - our identities our not up for debate and I for one do not appreciate being invited to “own” gender rather than live my own truth. Please
start your own thread and we can chat about it all there if you are actually interested in exploring this related topic rather than side tracking our discussion here on answering the census :-). Thanks!

@Cwenthryth, my apologies, didn't think I was derailing (otherwise wouldn't have posted) but there you go. Learn something new every day.