If you don’t have a gender identity - how to answer the census?

[Cwenthryth]

Following from the discussion on FPFW’s legal challenge to the ONS and discussion on Dr Nic’s appearance on Woman’s Hour yesterday, but I thought this topic deserved a separate place to discuss.

Let me make it 100% clear that I do not object to gender identity being recorded on the census, at all. It is important to many people. However I do object to the wording of the question assuming I have one, and conflating gender identity with sex, so it being very unclear as to how I should answer this question to provided accurate data.

The question is:

Is the gender you identify as the same as your sex registered at birth?

Tick Yes

Or

Tick No, and write in gender identity (18 characters permitted)

If you, like me, do not personally identify as having a gender identity, or indeed, as many do, politically and philosophically object to the concept of gender entirely as an oppressive, misogynistic tool of the patriarchy (whilst, just to be 100% clear, not objecting at all to others’ right to believe whatever else is right for them, identify as whatever they feel and have that identity recognised and counted on the census; I feel similarly about most organised religion but have no wish to shut down the churches and mosques!): How do you think you will answer or indeed can answer this question? Do you think it’s important that there is a co-ordinated response - I think these write-in answers are collated, otherwise how is it we know how many Jedis there are in the U.K. (390,127 in 2001, if you are interested. In Brighton 2.6% of the population were Jedi).

It’s voluntary, we don’t have to answer. We can leave it blank. I worry this will not record us though.

Or we can tick No, and write something in - something accurate and descriptive - NONE, NO GENDER IDENTITY, GENDER ATHEIST, NO BELIEF IN GENDER....? Or, perhaps if you would identify with this, GENDER ABOLITIONIST?

Or use the space as a protest (not sure about this at all - this is data collection) - SEX NOT GENDER, GENDER IS PATRIARCHY, GENDER IS MISOGYNY (thanks @EmpressWitchDoesntBurn), SMASH THE PATRIARCHY....

I’m not sure what to do for the best, to be accurate, for the greater good. This is an historical record of national importance. Would really appreciate exploring this on here!

I agree. I will not be answering that question. There is no good answer.

Because to state no gender ID or to put anything in that section at all will be ticked as self ID of your being trans.

It is an enforced belief as above: they might as well be asking are you Anglican or Catholic with no other options to say 'other faith' or 'I'm an agnostic/atheist'.

Don't touch it. Leave the whole section alone. I know it's terribly tempting to try and express anger over this somehow, or to identify as a table, but this really is heads we win, tails you lose.

I am also tempted to refuse to quantify a sex either. Frankly at the moment I'm starting to wonder why anyone would want to continue to be a woman if there was any other possible option available to them.

@MichelleofzeResistance

Because to state no gender ID or to put anything in that section at all will be ticked as self ID of your being trans.

It is an enforced belief as above: they might as well be asking are you Anglican or Catholic with no other options to say 'other faith' or 'I'm an agnostic/atheist'.

Don't touch it. Leave the whole section alone. I know it's terribly tempting to try and express anger over this somehow, or to identify as a table, but this really is heads we win, tails you lose.

I am also tempted to refuse to quantify a sex either. Frankly at the moment I'm starting to wonder why anyone would want to continue to be a woman if there was any other possible option available to them.

Wow, this is crazy, but I do see what you’re saying.

What the campaigners suggest we do

I intend leaving it blank, and most likely include the attached letter as suggested in another thread.

As for what I 'identify' as:
I'd be happy to 'identify' as French to get a passport for an EU member state.

I'm happy to 'identify' as a tea drinker.
I 'identify' as a morning person.
I 'identify' as a cat lover.

I think it comes down to how they're going to record it. If they're just adding up the number of 'nos' then its going to record you as trans if you fill that in, no matter what you put in the box.

Well yes, but why the option to describe your gender identity if they are just going to ignore that information? They could just have put yes or no.

Because to state no gender ID or to put anything in that section at all will be ticked as self ID of your being trans.
If 50% of the population tick 'no' and the ONS therefore identifies 50% of the population as trans then ONS are going to look very silly. Let's do it!

Mycatismadeofstringcheese - as has been said up thread and all the other threads about the census the gender question is voluntary.

Do not respond. To respond in any way legitimises it being included.

Hopefully most people wont and it will be dropped next time.

But the problem is the indoctrination via the media, twitter etc., has made "gender identity" something that people feel they should have.

I suspect even though it is voluntary, that all the woke crowd and the all the adults who want their kids to think they are really aware will fill it in. Not thinking of the consequences just thinking they want to please the inane young people they didn't have the backbone to challenge.

Do NOT fill in the gender question.

It just legitimicies it!!

Gender: free human female

then ONS are going to look very silly.

It's a nice idea and not wanting to be a wet blanket, I think if there was the capacity to recognise and feel concern about this then they might have done some thinking months and months ago. Before this last minute, carefully timed u turn and hurling of their credibility out of the window.

I would skip the question if in U.K. as I am gender abolitionist as well.
I with they had a “yes” “no” and “not applicable”. I’d be comfortable enough to check a not applicable.....

@senua

Because to state no gender ID or to put anything in that section at all will be ticked as self ID of your being trans. If 50% of the population tick 'no' and the ONS therefore identifies 50% of the population as trans then ONS are going to look very silly. Let's do it!

Oh actually I really like this idea.

How many months are there left to vacillate? Three?

Just to throw out a question to those of you who are completely au fait with all this; What do we think Jo public will make of the question? Do we have an informed prediction of how the average person with no knowledge of it patience for gender identities will respond?

But the problem is the indoctrination via the media, twitter etc., has made "gender identity" something that people feel they should have.

Gender identities! Two fer a pahhnd! Get 'em while they're 'ot! 'Ere, love, 'ave a nice Gender Idennity and get one for your mum as well eh?

I'm concerned that people will tick it as 'yes' without really understanding it.
To be honest, I might have done that a few years ago when I hadn't paid much attention and thought it was just 'not trans'.
I also think a lot of people will go 'er what?' or just tick yes because they use 'gender' as a synonym for sex and don't really know what its about.

RickiTarr - I've alrady said just a bit upthread what I think the public will do, and JustTurtles has indicated the problem.

@JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown

I'm concerned that people will tick it as 'yes' without really understanding it. To be honest, I might have done that a few years ago when I hadn't paid much attention and thought it was just 'not trans'. I also think a lot of people will go 'er what?' or just tick yes because they use 'gender' as a synonym for sex and don't really know what its about.

That’s what I was afraid you’d say.

The prudishness that contributed to the conflation of sex and gender is infuriating.

Do not respond. To respond in any way legitimises it being included.
Hopefully most people wont and it will be dropped next time.

As I stated in my OP - I don’t object to a question on gender identity being included. I don’t have an aim of the census dropping the subject entirely. I object to the wording of this particular question as inaccurate and exclusionary, but I don’t object to the principle of recording gender identity even though it does not pertain to me. Same as I have no religion but I have no problem with recording that and others recording theirs. Gender identity is clearly important to other people and that’s fine; but it’s not relevant to me, I don’t have one and should be able to record that if others are recording that they do.

It’s not a lie to say that my gender identity is not the same as my sex registered at birth, to be fair. By virtue of the former not existing for me (and if it did being an entirely subjective and changeable phenomenon) and the latter being an immutable fact, they’re not the same. For anyone, in fact!

I also think it’s absolutely fine btw that we’re not all going to agree on this and can understand the argument being put forward about not answering the question. Just haven’t convinced me that’s the right way forward here. Even the Sex in the Census guidance says that a ‘no’ answer may be counted as trans status. Not will be. We don’t know.

I have worked with data from past censuses.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that the result of this question WILL be reported by journalists, policymakers and campaigners when the Census data is published as meaning ‘X% of people said they were trans’.

If you answer this VOLUNTARY question, more fool you. It should be boycotted. If they get a very low % of respondents answering this question, its findings will be statistically in doubt.

Women should be campaigning not to answer this question. Fools!

Just write "Not applicable"

If you put 'no' you will be counted as trans. I suspect they will either ignore anything typed in the box if its not one of the identities approved by Stonewall or it will be lumped in as 'other' . I don't see the point in artificially inflating the numbers of people who say they believe in gender ideology, this will make things worse. Just skip the question.

I'm not all that convinced that sending a letter with a paper form will make any difference either, they'll just bin them. Although its true that loads of people asking for a paper form will annoy them.

Still think there must be a better way of getting our point across.

Still think there must be a better way of getting our point across.

Boycott the entire exercise? That’s the only other option. I have mixed feelings about it but I have mixed feelings about every POV so far.

There were thousands of Jedi responses Ricki - enough to make it statistically significant. We'd need to somehow ensure a mass campaign, all filling it in the same way for it to figure at all. Don't think that's possible.

Any answer to that question will either be recorded as 'trans' or 'cis'. So unless you feel happy with one of those designations it's best to leave it blank.

Boycott the Gender Question

Do not submit to the false reality of Stonewall!

Do not become a collaborator with the enemy of women!

Silence is the best way to answer a fool!