Transphobia or truths?

[TwittleBee]

Hi there!

First, apologise if this has been really over discussed already.

I'm pretty new to the whole self ID and trans issues and pretty shocked to discover I'm probably classed as a "Radical" feminist.

How comes it's seen as transphobia when women talk about women's rights or sex or gender?

Perhaps I'm being naive, but I haven't seen anything i would class as transphobic on MN yet? Just a lot of feminists discussing their concerns for women and girls' rights?

Looking for answers so I can see both points of view but also so I can attempt to understand what is going on here.

Thanks x

Can anyone confirm they believe there is a real and serious threat of trans people completely erasing the whole concept of womanhood?

What do you mean by 'womanhood'? What is a woman?

What, for your screenshots?

Ereshkigal
Not all Catholics abuse young boys. It would be outrageous to state that they did. However, can we examine how the Catholic Church as an institution covered up and sheltered child abuse by people in power
Yes we should very much be able to do that.

Yes. But what you are not then doing is suggesting that all Catholics or even priests should be excluded from children's spaces because they are a risk.

Yes. But what you are not then doing is suggesting that all Catholics or even priests should be excluded from children's spaces because they are a risk.

Have you not heard of Safeguarding? DBS? No?

So given that the GRA has nothing to do with being able to access hormones or surgery, please describe the devastating consequences for trans people in this country if the GRA were repealed.

The GRA allows people to change their documentation including birth certificates so their privacy is maintained in line with UK law and the European Court of Human Rights.

Have you not heard of Safeguarding? DBS? No?

I have yes. They are required for trans women before they are employed in a female only space such as a refuge.

So given that the GRA has nothing to do with being able to access hormones or surgery, please describe the devastating consequences for trans people in this country if the GRA were repealed.

Yeah, this seems a rather wilful misunderstanding. Pretty sure daim said the negative consequences would be as a result of not being able to live as the gender with which they identify. And as SMG points out, the loss of the GRA would mean they wouldn't have legal status or identifying documents in that gender. Quite the significant barrier to that life, wouldn't you think?

All documentation except birth certificate can be changed without a GRC. There's a reason less than 5000 trans people have bothered getting one in the 14 years the GRA has been law.

What devastating consequences have there been for the vast majority of trans people who haven't bothered getting a GRC?

Yes. But what you are not then doing is suggesting that all Catholics or even priests should be excluded from children's spaces because they are a risk.

No. I said we should be able to talk about the institutional paedophilia problems of the Catholic Church. Because if that were shut down there would be a big problem.

I have yes. They are required for trans women before they are employed in a female only space such as a refuge.

Trans women should not BE in a female only space - the clue is in the word 'female'.

I have yes. They are required for trans women before they are employed in a female only space such as a refuge.

Are they? Really? Do link to that proof. Given that a trans identified male wouldn't be employed in a female only space?

Did most radfems on your other thread say they’d like to repeal the GRA? My recollection is the opposite.

Yeah, this seems a rather wilful misunderstanding.

Yeah. Yours I think.

There's a reason less than 5000 trans people have bothered getting one in the 14 years the GRA has been law.

Actually I don't think that stat's confirmed, although I don't think you're a million miles out.

But look, 5000, 7000, 9000; whatever the number; they clearly went through the significant process for a very good reason. Do the devastating consequences on them and the steady tickle of those that will come after them, matter less because of their (not insignificant) number? It is that small number for whom the act was introduced in the first place.

Worth noting too that given the other locations where self-id has come in, noone expects a large increase in the uptake of GRCs if self-ID comes in.

What devastating consequences have there been for the vast majority of trans people who haven't bothered getting a GRC?

I thought we were talking about the potentially devastating consequences of repealing the GRA, so.... the implication is rather that those would mostly be felt by those who have benefited from the GRA by obtaining a GRC.

The consequences of self ID have fuck all to do with trans-people.

Once men are accepted into women's spaces on the basis of being "trans" something that is a very large umbrella, questioning ANY man in that space becomes taboo. This will lead to men wandering in because they feel like it, or because the spaces tend to be cleaner, or simply just to perv.

If you can't see this then you are being willfully blind. The only solution I can see (outside of solving male violence and the objectification of women's bodies) is to separate these spaces based on sex.

Ok, I’m really bored, so I scanned through the nearly 500 posts currently existing on daimbar’s other thread to see how radfems had answered her question about whether the GRA should be repealed or not. Here’s the thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3245474-questions-from-a-liberal-feminist-to-the-rad-fems?pg=5&messages=100

I made the totals, for those who answered the specific question as follows:

Yes the GRA should be repealed: 11
No it should not be repealed: 14 (including 2 who said they were being pragmatic and 2 who felt it was obsolete anyway)
Don’t know: 4

Apart from anything else this shows that there isn’t much of a hive mind on here if we can be nearly evenly split on an issue! But the no’s are slightly ahead.

Perhaps I’m a cynic, but I read daimbar’s incorrect claim on this thread that most radfems had said they want to repeal the GRA as an attempt to show that radfems are in some way a threat to transpeople, such that it would justify the sort of treatment that ‘terfs’ have been receiving online and in real life. Having failed to get anyone at all to say that they believed transpeople currently receiving hormones should be stopped from getting them, or that gender-nonconforming three-year-olds should be forced out of that behaviour, the best she could do is lie that we want the GRA repealed.

whatever the number; they clearly went through the significant process for a very good reason

Yes, we didn't used to have equal marriage. Pension ages used to be different (they'll be equal in a matter of months). I dare say in 2004 it wasn't so easy to change the gender marker on your passport, driving licence or even on more everyday things like bank accounts and bills.

Times change, society moves on, laws become obsolete.

I thought we were talking about the potentially devastating consequences of repealing the GRA, so.... the implication is rather that those would mostly be felt by those who have benefited from the GRA by obtaining a GRC.

What devastating consequences will they face?

I don't personally care if the GRA is repealed or not BTW, as long as it's not changed to self-ID. It's not transphobia to want to discuss whether an obsolete piece of legislation should stay on the books or be repealed though.

No. I said we should be able to talk about the institutional paedophilia problems of the Catholic Church. Because if that were shut down there would be a big problem.

Absolutely. I was pointing out that you're not also calling for exclusion of priests from children's spaces despite there being many incidences of abuse, but you do call for the exclusion of trans women from female spaces.

Trans women should not BE in a female only space - the clue is in the word 'female'.

Are they? Really? Do link to that proof. Given that a trans identified male wouldn't be employed in a female only space?

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/02/04/womens-refuges-set-to-overturn-ban-on-self-identifying-transgender-staff/

There are and have been transitioned trans women legally employed in female only spaces.

What devastating consequences will they face?

Surely that's not for me to say as I'm not the poster who stated there would be devastating consequences in the first place? Although I seem to remember daim did already answer, citing that many had reported they were prepared to kill themselves had they not been able to live as the gender with which they identified. I presume that will be in no small part due to the transphobia they would anticipate (I imagine they would know) were they not able to keep their gender reassignment to themselves.

But like I say, not my question to answer really, that's just my musings.

Perhaps I’m a cynic, but I read daimbar’s incorrect claim on this thread that most radfems had said they want to repeal the GRA as an attempt to show that radfems are in some way a threat to transpeople, such that it would justify the sort of treatment that ‘terfs’ have been receiving online and in real life.

Yes. Plus the insinuation earlier that what we're upset about is what one transwoman said once on twitter.

We're not a hive mind - we're a group of women with opinions. Personally, I find what Shon Faye said offensive - and indicative of the dismissal of fears of women - but meh, SF is easily ignored.

It's self ID that is my problem - and organisations, prisons, girl guides, sports, Labour Party etc acting as though self ID was already in place.

I think GRC are ok - but I don't believe you should be able to self ID for them - and I think that full sexual reassignment should have happened before anyone can get one. That's my personal opinion - the next Mumsnetter on here may completely agree, slightly agree or not agree at all - but that opinion would have me abused as TERF.

@daimbars thanks for acknowledging our fears and the fact that, if they have a basis in reality, they do not constitute phobia. For some of us (perhaps many of us) the boy brain girl brain narrative supported by trans people, their allies and you, is a direct threat to the mental and physical wellbeing of our children, particularly those of us with autistic or gay dc. Would you like to comment on this?

Daimbar from what I've heard self-id will actually make it harder to access hormones and surgery
So the opposite to what you want.

@supermatchgame you share some of the boy brain girl brain ideology. Care to comment?