If you're pro Self ID for trans people please could you explain it to me?

[ReluctantCamper]

I have never debated with anyone who's pro self ID because they invariably post 'transwomen are women' on threads and never return.

When I have arrived at a thought out position I'm keen to debate it with others who think differently to test my reasoning - that's how I feel now.

I know we have a number of pro self ID lurkers - anyone feel like explaining to me why it's a good idea?

I promise to carefully read what you say and take it seriously, I don't promise to agree.

Come on, it's my birthday, someone treat me!

[Justanotherzombie]

Because it's not for me to decide who anyone else is and there's plenty of room for more women in the world. To me they are simply extra women.

[ReluctantCamper]

Adult human of the sex class that produces eggs and gestates young have unique healthcare needs, therefore we need a word to be able to identify them as a class. Currently if you consult a dictionary, that word is woman.

Why do we need to change the meaning of a well understood word. Why not just have a different word for members of the sex class that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring who wish to wear dresses or skirts and have longer hair than other members of that sex class?

[TheGoldenBough]

To me they are simply extra women.

Really?

Even when they are replacing 'actual' women?

Do you really believe that they are no different to women? Even though they have been socialised as men and have different needs to men and still talk and behave and prioritise their own needs and wants as men?

[Glitched]

Because we accept that trans people are the gender they claim to be and the decent thing to do is be inclusive.

[ReluctantCamper]

Trying to be less verbose, I guess what I'm saying is the majority of the english speaking world have a very clear understanding of the word woman which does not include people who can produce sperm.

Why do we need to change the definition of that word? What benefit does it bring?

[jeaux90]

Sorry I can't think of anything good about Self ID. We already have a process that supports people with GD and those who have had SRS and have a GRC are protected in law as are women.

Keep the AGP's out of my spaces thanks.

[ReluctantCamper]

I should have said thanks for delurking and replying Glitched and Justanotherzombie.

but sex is important. People have needs that are unique to their sex. I will never need a prostate examination for example. Isn't it important to be able to correctly identify what sex class people belong to?

[HermioneWeasley]

Just another woman

Any woman should be happy to get undressed in front of her, have her provide intimate medical care, or have her shower next to their daughter.

Lovely.

[LittleLebowski]

there's plenty of room for more women in the world

Even ones with erections?

[ReluctantCamper]

therefore if you start including people in a sex class (i might like to sign up to that!) by their gender, not on the basis of their sex, you make that classification useless surely?

[Gwenhwyfar]

"Adult human of the sex class that produces eggs and gestates young"

Not all 'cis' women have everything in working order though. Some are born without a vagina or a womb or ovaries or have to have womb/ovaries taken out for some reason. If you judge people on having a working set of reproductive organs, you'd exclude a lot of women born female too. Just to be devil's advocate here, I'd argue that how I'm treated by society is what makes me a woman more than having periods or anything like that.

[CaptainKirkssparetupee]

So do you want to hear people views or argue with their opinions?

[ReluctantCamper]

Hi Gwenhwyfar, thanks for replying.

No, I don't say that a person is a woman only if she is fertile. If someone has had a hysterectomy they are clearly a woman because their body was able to produce eggs at some point.

If someone was born without a vagina or womb I would guess that they may be intersex, although I have no expertise in this area and would be very interested to read any links you can provide on how widespread this sort of anomaly is.

[ReluctantCamper]

I want to debate with them CaptainKirkssparetupee. I hope my OP made that clear.

[LifelongVaginaOwner]

Not all 'cis' women have everything in working order though. Some are born without a vagina or a womb or ovaries or have to have womb/ovaries taken out for some reason. If you judge people on having a working set of reproductive organs, you'd exclude a lot of women born female too. Just to be devil's advocate here, I'd argue that how I'm treated by society is what makes me a woman more than having periods or anything like that.

The argument though is how you are treated is based on those biology realities, which although not common to all women (for the reasons you've outlined), are the 'norm'. So as a girl society may not feel you need to receive the same level of education as a boy because the society thinks your primary role is as a mother. Similarly a prospective employer may disregard you for certain posts as you will 'just go off and get pregnant'. Your individual fertility isn't relevant; its your membership of the sex category 'female'.

[CaptainKirkssparetupee]

Is it actually your birthday?

[ReluctantCamper]

Because of the prevailing gender critical views on this board it does run the risk of becoming an echo chamber, and there is nothing more dangerous than a bunch of people all agreeing with each other.

It's good to hear different opinions, we should all be open to that.

[ReluctantCamper]

yup CaptainKirkssparetupee. I am ignoring my children so I can debate with you interesting people about gender identity. not sure what that says about me!

I will have to go out and be the birthday girl soon though, so I will disappear in half an hour or so, apologies.

[CaptainKirkssparetupee]

🎂 children ignoring is fine, happy birthday.

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

reluctant

I liked the verbosity

I think that intersex people have been reported as being unhappy with being co-opted into the transgender debates

[Triliteration]

Because we accept that trans people are the gender they claim to be and the decent thing to do is be inclusive.

Hi Glitched.

Can I ask, do you see any difference between gender and sex? Because self-ID is all about allowing people to legally change sex.

I have no problem with allowing people to feel how they feel, or to express that in the way they dress, but self-ID will mean biologically male people will be able to sign a form, and then enter sports competitions as women. Or will have the right to be processed as a woman if they are put in prison.

[BigDeskBob]

To be honest, and I am against any form of GRC self id or not, i don't think you are going to get the answers you want here.

The answers you will get are:
Women and female are very different things
It's such a small group of people it doesn't matter
MIT are the most vulnerable group
It's a nice thing to do, women are nice
Sex segregation is wrong anyway.

I've spoken to lots and lots of allies and MIT, and it always comes down to one or more of these points.

You are trying to find logic in a faith based system, you'll drive yourself crazy.

[Fairenuff]

I have a question. Anyone who is pro self ID could you please give your definition of a woman. Thanks.

[ReluctantCamper]

LifelongVaginaOwner, I have been trying not to use the social side of being a member of the sex class that produces eggs yada yada, as it is more nebulous and harder to define.

I know what you mean though. No body checks the fertility of a female fetus before aborting it. It is aborted because it does not have a penis I guess.

[LangCleg]

So do you want to hear people views or argue with their opinions?

I imagine OP was hoping for something more substantive than the usual drivel about faux inclusivity and not being mean.

An objective definition of woman under which TIMs are women, for instance?